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The Great College Hoax

forbes.com

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Re: The Great College Hoax

#21

Post by BigZaphod »

arockwell wrote: post #19
BigZaphod wrote: post #6

The fix is to not go into debt just to go to college. A college education is a luxury - but it's one that can be had at an affordable cost if you're ambitious, work your ass off, and take advantage of every grant, job, research position, etc. you can find. IMO, it's the people who do the leg work to get into those kinds of programs and reduce the cost of their own education that ultimately succeed in the end anyway.

It is extremely difficult to get an undergrad education without going into some debt even if you go to a public instituion. I went to a very cheap state school in a low cost of living area and even with a full scholarship I barely escaped without any debt from simply paying for room and board. I held a part-time job but at $7.50/hr it didn't go that far.

Oh, it's hard, no doubt. I wasn't so smart back then and went to a private school and took out huge loans because my parents told me that was how it was done. (It's all paid for now, though.) My wife was smarter. She went 5 years at a state school with zero debt by working crap fast food jobs, lab assistant, food service, etc. She'd never even owned a car. She had grants and stuff to help her out. By her last year we were married, so my income made it possible to pay cash for the final stretch which a lot of her grants wouldn't cover. So yeah - I'm not saying it's easy - but it can be done.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#22

Post by coglethorpe »

> a bachelor's degree in history

Strike one.

> took out $60,000 in student loans

Strike two.

College isn't a bad idea. Majoring in subjects that lead to careers with more job seekers than jobs and taking out student loans is are bad ideas.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#23

Post by robg »

eli wrote: post #16

Totally offtopic, but I hate it when people link to the Printer Friendly version. It's a whole lot harder to read on a widescreen monitor. If you don't want to see ads on the regular site, install AdBlock like everyone else.

Some people, like me, prefer single-page over multi-page.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#24

Post by swombat »

fiaz wrote: post #20

This article needs to explicitly state: 1) education is valuable 2) education has become too expensive (implicitly stated) 3) the "hoax" is that of how our credit/debt system works, not about the collegiate system Already people on this thread are jumping the gun and stating that college sucks and you don't need it. But this is a subjective view and should be taken as such. The only fact that I can get from this arti…

I think the problem is with those 18% loans (covered by your 3rd point, I think). What the hell? Who pays that kind of interest rate?

The article states: A correlation between B.A.s and incomes is not proof of cause and effect. It may reflect nothing more than the fact that the economy rewards smart people and smart people are likely to go to college.

I would say that there is likely to be a strong correlation between being foolish enough to take an 18% student loan and getting a low-paid job later (taking on that kind of loan shows a staggering lack of common sense).

Seems to me that that's the only problem there. People should not be allowed to turn that kind of profit on student loans of all things. If there's one kind of loan that should be government-sponsored, this is it.

For the record, in the UK, student loans come in at about 2.5%.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#25

Post by BigZaphod »

fiaz wrote: post #20

This article needs to explicitly state: 1) education is valuable 2) education has become too expensive (implicitly stated) 3) the "hoax" is that of how our credit/debt system works, not about the collegiate system Already people on this thread are jumping the gun and stating that college sucks and you don't need it. But this is a subjective view and should be taken as such. The only fact that I can get from this arti…

I would argue that, to some degree (har har), it is still accessible to "most." Maybe not "all," but I think of college as a luxury item. The formal education (in the US) that is guaranteed to everyone ends with high school. Why should it extend indefinitely? And why must college be considered a possibility immediately after high school? IMO, we need to insert a cultural cue that hints that it is okay to graduation high school, work a bit, save up some money, and then hit up college in a couple years when you can pay for it. It'd be a decent compromise and might make the ones who take the leap appreciate it even more.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#26

Post by swombat »

dsaewra wrote: post #8
tokenadult wrote: post #2

"Accepted into the California Western School of Law, a private San Diego institution, Kellum couldn't swing the $36,000 in annual tuition with financial aid and part-time work." That choice of a law school was probably crucial in how the story unfolded. That's not a law school with a high return on investment in that local job market.

Article states that he and his wife landed six figure salaries, but graduated with 194k in debt. I think more crucial to how the story unfolded is that they probably didn't live below their means, probably didn't consolidate the loans to a lower rate (they were paying rates at 9%-12%), and probably didn't pay the loan off aggressively. I wouldn't blame going to college, or college choice for poor financial sense.

According to the article, the loans were at 18% variable rate... that's probably most of the problem right there.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#27

Post by swombat »

BigZaphod wrote: post #25
fiaz wrote: post #20

This article needs to explicitly state: 1) education is valuable 2) education has become too expensive (implicitly stated) 3) the "hoax" is that of how our credit/debt system works, not about the collegiate system Already people on this thread are jumping the gun and stating that college sucks and you don't need it. But this is a subjective view and should be taken as such. The only fact that I can get from this arti…

I would argue that, to some degree (har har), it is still accessible to "most." Maybe not "all," but I think of college as a luxury item. The formal education (in the US) that is guaranteed to everyone ends with high school. Why should it extend indefinitely? And why must college be considered a possibility immediately after high school? IMO, we need to insert a cultural cue that hints that it is okay to graduation h…

It should extend to all because we all benefit from a more educated population. Better educated people less likely to elect another Bush, for one, but they're also more likely to end up doing high value jobs, rather than working in a McJob (which, while an honourable duty, isn't exactly on the same level as working for a start-up or a biotechnology firm).

Allowing people the opportunity to reach their full potential, no matter where they started from, adds value to our society. Intelligence matters a lot in how far you can go, but, for most people, so does education.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#28

Post by BigZaphod »

swombat wrote: post #24
fiaz wrote: post #20

This article needs to explicitly state: 1) education is valuable 2) education has become too expensive (implicitly stated) 3) the "hoax" is that of how our credit/debt system works, not about the collegiate system Already people on this thread are jumping the gun and stating that college sucks and you don't need it. But this is a subjective view and should be taken as such. The only fact that I can get from this arti…

I think the problem is with those 18% loans (covered by your 3rd point, I think). What the hell? Who pays that kind of interest rate? The article states: A correlation between B.A.s and incomes is not proof of cause and effect. It may reflect nothing more than the fact that the economy rewards smart people and smart people are likely to go to college. I would say that there is likely to be a strong correlation betwee…

Most student loans backed by the government have pretty decent interest rates in the US, too. However some people either can't get enough in government-backed loans or fail to qualify or are stupid.. or something.. and so they hit up the private lenders which prey on them something terrible. I never went private so I'm not really sure, but I suppose another reason to go with private loans is so you can spend the money on things much more disconnected from your education costs - like a car. I seem to remember the government loans being pretty tightly tied to the school and thus it wasn't like I could borrow more than the cost of school without going outside the government-backed loans. (But I could be wrong.)

Re: The Great College Hoax

#29

Post by Xichekolas »

blankity_blank wrote: post #9

What the hell were the couple in example #1 doing with their $200K income? If they wanted to pay off their debt in 10 years, they'd need about $2800 a month, assuming the rate was the full 12% the whole time. I agree with a lot of the article, but a couple of idiots who pissed away the fruits of their education on too many vacations and fancy cars (obviously not any real investments, otherwise they could have refinan…

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that.

Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class, then I must be in poverty.

It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slightly to achieve financial goals just doesn't occur to some people. People that make good money and manage it poorly garner zero sympathy from me.

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