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Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

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Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#701

Post by joha4270 »

jacquesm wrote: post #693
WalterBright wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once rounded a blind curve on a non-residential street only to find a man on a bicycle pulling a trailer with his baby in it, stopped in the middle of the road. I stopped and yelled at him, which surprised him. That incident still gives me the willies.

You yelled at someone because you were in the wrong? Panic reaction?

Whatever our human laws and morality says about right and wrong and fault, the laws of physics usually judges the car a winner when it hits somebody.

Placing yourself somewhere where pedestrians are not expected (non-residental road) mostly hidden from oncoming traffic for an extended period is putting yourself in undue risk.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#702

Post by jacquesm »

joha4270 wrote: post #701
jacquesm wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You yelled at someone because you were in the wrong? Panic reaction?

Whatever our human laws and morality says about right and wrong and fault, the laws of physics usually judges the car a winner when it hits somebody. Placing yourself somewhere where pedestrians are not expected (non-residental road) mostly hidden from oncoming traffic for an extended period is putting yourself in undue risk.

You don't always have a choice about where you are momentarily and anybody turning a blind corner has an obligation to immediately reduce their speed (prior to turning the corner!) to where they can safely come to a stop without endangering others. That's drivers education 101. Right after 'don't text while driving', 'don't drink while driving' and 'slow down when there are pedestrians, bicycles and other fragile road users around'.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#703

Post by veltas »

aanet wrote: post #681
amluto wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waymo’s performance, once the pedestrian was revealed, sounds pretty good. But is 17mph a safe speed at an active school dropoff area? I admit that I don’t think I ever personally pay attention to the speedometer in such a place, but 17mph seems excessive even for an ordinary parking lot. I wonder whether Waymo’s model notices that small children are present or likely to be present and that it should leave extra marg…

> But is 17mph a safe speed at an active school dropoff area? Now you're asking interesting questions... Technically, in CA, the speed limit in school zones are 25 mph (which local authorities can change to 15 mph, as needed). In this case, that would be something the investigation would check, of course. But regardless of that, 17 mph per se is not a very fast speed (my gut check: turning around intersections at > 1…

> Technically, in CA, the speed limit in school zones are 25 mph

Legally a speed limit is a 'limit' on speed, not a suggested or safe speed. So it's never valid to argue legally that you were driving under the limit, the standard is that you slow down or give more room for places like a school drop-off while kids are being dropped off or picked up.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#704

Post by [deleted] »

hnlmorg wrote: post #698
Habgdnv wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Bulgaria we have a similar speed reduction strategy but we are a bit ahead of Sweden: We use medium-radius but very deep potholes. If you lose attention for even a split second, you are forced to a full stop to change a tire. Near schools it gets more "advanced": they put parked cars on both sides of the road, and the holes positioned so you can't bypass them. For example, two tire-sized holes on both sides of the…

That’s genius but one has to ask: how much does it cost to maintain these speed restricting features? In the UK, the cost of owning a car is high yet our potholes, while frequent, are small enough to survive. Thus being more of an annoyance rather than a speed restriction.

[deleted]

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#705

Post by Tepix »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #400
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #2

From the Waymo blog... > the pedestrian suddenly entered the roadway from behind a tall SUV, moving directly into our vehicle's path. Our technology immediately detected the individual as soon as they began to emerge from behind the stopped vehicle. The Waymo Driver braked hard, reducing speed from approximately 17 mph to under 6 mph before contact was made. > Following contact, the pedestrian stood up immediately, w…

In fact I would call that “superhuman” behavior across the board. The vast vast vast majority of human drivers would not have been able to accomplish that braking procedure that quickly, and then would not have been able to manage the follow up so quickly. I have watched other parent drivers in the car pick up line at public schools for the last 16 years and people are absolutely trash at navigating that whole proces…

Human drivers are smart enough to slow down when around a school where kids are being dropped of. This piece of software wasn't. Clearly not superhuman.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#706

Post by IshKebab »

somenameforme wrote: post #622
jobs_throwaway wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And to add > Waymo said in its blog post that its “peer-reviewed model” shows a “fully attentive human driver in this same situation would have made contact with the pedestrian at approximately 14 mph.” It's likely that a fully-attentive human driver would have done worse. With a distracted driver (a huge portion of human drivers) it could've been catastrophic.

You're omitting the context provided by the article. This wasn't just a random scenario. Not only was this by an elementary school, but during school drop off hours, with both children and doubled parked cars in the vicinity. If somebody doesn't know what double parking is - it's when cars parallel park beside one another, implicitly on the road, making it difficult to see what's beyond them. So you are around young…

> not something a human would typically do

lol I'm guessing you don't have kids. This is hilarious.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#707

Post by make3 »

aanet wrote: post #570
ssteeper wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your opinion as an AV safety expert, has Waymo already demonstrated a far higher standard of driving than human drivers in collision avoidance scenarios?

> In your opinion as an AV safety expert, has Waymo already demonstrated a far higher standard of driving than human drivers in collision avoidance scenarios? That's a difficult question to answer, and the devil really is in the details, as you may have guessed. What I can say that Waymo is, by far, the most prolific publisher of research on AV safety on public roads. (yes, those are my qualifiers...) Here's their ma…

still, how many ppl do they kill per mile compared to humans?

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#708

Post by jeffybefffy519 »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #2

From the Waymo blog... > the pedestrian suddenly entered the roadway from behind a tall SUV, moving directly into our vehicle's path. Our technology immediately detected the individual as soon as they began to emerge from behind the stopped vehicle. The Waymo Driver braked hard, reducing speed from approximately 17 mph to under 6 mph before contact was made. > Following contact, the pedestrian stood up immediately, w…

I wonder if another waymo ahead could have seen that child earlier and told the main waymo. This would be pretty neat and have a large safety impact.

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#709

Post by youngtaff »

Twirrim wrote: post #519
mikepurvis wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're safer specifically for vehicles, as they convert many conflicts that would be t-bones (worst for passengers) into getting rear-ended (maximum crumple zone on both vehicles). Roundabouts are worse for land use though, which impacts walkability, and the safety story for pedestrians and bike users with them is decidedly not great as well.

>Roundabouts are worse for land use though, which impacts walkability, and the safety story for pedestrians and bike users with them is decidedly not great as well. They're much safer for pedestrians than intersections. You're only crossing and dealing with traffic coming from one direction, stopping at a median, and then crossing further over. Unlike trying to navigate a crosswalk where you have to play guessing gam…

To an extent… drivers tend to accelerate when leaving roundabouts which can make crossing difficult for pedestrians

Re: Waymo robotaxi hits a child near an elementary school in Santa Monica

#710

Post by lozenge »

hnlmorg wrote: post #698
Habgdnv wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Bulgaria we have a similar speed reduction strategy but we are a bit ahead of Sweden: We use medium-radius but very deep potholes. If you lose attention for even a split second, you are forced to a full stop to change a tire. Near schools it gets more "advanced": they put parked cars on both sides of the road, and the holes positioned so you can't bypass them. For example, two tire-sized holes on both sides of the…

That’s genius but one has to ask: how much does it cost to maintain these speed restricting features? In the UK, the cost of owning a car is high yet our potholes, while frequent, are small enough to survive. Thus being more of an annoyance rather than a speed restriction.

That's the best part, the holes maintain themselves. Heck, they even appear without a site survey or paperwork.
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