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Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

devuan.org

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Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#61

Honest question here: why do people hate systemd so much?

Many of us starting using Linux before systemd was a thing, and you get used to what you use, so when something new appears that are trying (well, in this case "tried and succeeded at") to replace a bunch of stuff, there is a natural push-back against it. I think systemd also took a relatively non-unixy approach, where it's a big stack to adopt, rather than individual programs that work together well. Typically, we p…

I started using Unix before Linux was a thing, and BSD-style rc scripts were a pain in the arse.

Then along came Linux with its sysvinit-style init scripts, which were a pain in the arse.

Now here's systemd with yet another form of init scripts, which are a pain in the arse.

Each time there's been an evolutionary shift in how we do things, and systemd works pretty well for the way we use desktop systems now. They're also not terrible for servers once you get used to them. I still find them pretty annoying.

Anyway the TL;DR is that computers suck and operating systems suck and init scripts suck and the whole thing sucks, and everything else we've tried is somehow worse than what we have.

It makes me want to just go back to fixing tractors. People are really grateful when you show up in the middle of a muddy field at 10pm and fix their tractor.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#62
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it someone's else's fault for that systemd has dependencies or that others depend on systemd? If I use and like Firefox, and others depend on Firefox, or Firefox depend on others, then it's Firefox fault for you choosing Firefox? I really don't understand the argument you're trying to make. You had choices before systemd, and you still have choices even though systemd is widespread, what's the problem? It isn'…

Red Hat created hard dependencies on systemd in all of the popular software they develop to ensure its adoption.

Which software has hard dependencies on systemd?

Also, it's not just RedHat that's depending on systemd, as if its a conspiracy on their part.

https://www.theregister.com/2026/01/26/plasma_6_6_systemd_lo...

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#63
post #21

I don't care: I can administer with relatively high confidence any Redhat- or Debian-derivate. Thanks to systems. Most issues regarding systemd I encountered were due to a halfway adoption (Debian). Some things like timers are a bit more cumbersome than "the old way", but I wouldn't want to miss the added robustness. Most things systemd implements lead to _less_ issues. And writing a systemd unit is pretty easy, cont…

That's good for you! Isn't that a selfish view, though? "Works for me,so I don't care that systemd is creating dependencies everywhere for everyone else". I appreciate that it simplifies some things, but I can't understand that you can't choose which parts of it to install, or even replace parts of it with alternatives. Isn't linux about choice? It feels we're going on a downwards spiral where choice is being taken a…

You can turn most parts off. Maybe don't talk about stuff you have not much idea about ?

There is point to complain about distros turning it on by default but you could have systemd where systemd just does unit management and not much more.

The hardest part to get rid of would probably be journald as this parasite's log format is just... not good in any metric but it isn't easy to replace either if you want to keep systemd functionality

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#64
post #42

I have to admit to still having some philosophical discomfort over SystemD as I feel that it encompasses too much functionality. That said, it does work and that is probably the most important thing.

Linux (the kernel) has LOTS of functionality anyone barely use or even know. Without that, there's no tooling around this functionality, no adoption. Not even all TCP socket options (setsockopt) are documented!

Systemd pushed forward proper usage of capabilities, better watchdogs (in a broader sense, as systemd supports all kinds of them), isolation, policies, and so on and so forth. You need it all to efficiently control the daemons, and it's great when it's all available in a single suite.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#65

As a passionate systemd hater I still will not go back to using older bash-based initsystems and thus devuan. I strongly believe that systemd brand is a worst thing that happened to Linux, hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space, but at the same time I have to admit that systemd-as-pid1 is the best init system out there.

> hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space What "innovations" have been prevented or hindered by systemd? I guess you could argue "well, we can't know" but then what is the argument here really? I'm guessing there is something concrete your thinking about here, that systemd made impossible, but I'm not understanding what you're referencing, I can't recall anything like that.

alternate libc's like musl. the eglibc controversy showed this was necessary but poettering initially refused to support a "non-useful libc". his words.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red Hat created hard dependencies on systemd in all of the popular software they develop to ensure its adoption.

So if you don't like that, don't you still have the choice not to use software developed by Red Hat?

They do, they just want to whine about software other people made (that they don't contribute to) doing something they don't like.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#67

I don't care: I can administer with relatively high confidence any Redhat- or Debian-derivate. Thanks to systems. Most issues regarding systemd I encountered were due to a halfway adoption (Debian). Some things like timers are a bit more cumbersome than "the old way", but I wouldn't want to miss the added robustness. Most things systemd implements lead to _less_ issues. And writing a systemd unit is pretty easy, cont…

One system to rule them all, blame any issue encountered on lake of full adoption, and label them as defamation. What could go wrong?

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#68

Honest question here: why do people hate systemd so much?

Ignoring the more stupid reasons why people dislike systemd; there's really only three reasons.

The first is just the simple fact that most people don't want to administer their distro as a hobby. Similarly, distro maintainers primarily care about shipping a complete package that they don't need to mess around with too much. Before systemd, every distro had its own bespoke choices in tools and utilities that were wired to work together. Systemd however effectively homogenized all those choices, since almost every major distro settled on systemd. The main difference between distros now is as a result not necessarily the choices the maintainers made, but things like the package manager and the release schedule, so there's less of an incentive to use other distro's. (This isn't some sort of conspiracy, which the dumber arguments against systemd tend to assume; it's just a case where systemd winds up as the easiest choice - systemd has Red Hat backing, wires complicated things together in a way where it works on most novel PC environments that usually require config fiddling when not using systemd and it's just one upstream maintainers have to submit bugs to rather than a ton of different ones. The reasons to pick systemd as opposed to "one million tools" mostly just comes down to systemd being less of a headache for maintainers.)

The second is that systemd violates some assumptions on how Linux software is "traditionally" designed. systemd is a PID 1 process, meaning it's job is to start every other process on the system. In regular Linux software design, this would be the only thing systemd does. Systemd does this, but it also provides a massive suite of services and tools for things that, historically, have been relegated to separate tools. It's a big bulky program, that while it is modular, is essentially competing with a bunch of other Linux utilities in ways that aren't really standardized. This combines with point 1, where distro maintainers near universally settled on systemd, and what happens is that a lot of non-systemd tools that do what systemd used to do aren't really being used anymore even though the systemd implementation isn't necessarily better.

Finally there is a legitimate, albeit niche, case to avoid systemd. Because it's massive and distro maintainers tend to enable a lot of things in systemd, using it means you're getting a lot of random background processes that use up CPU/memory. If you're constrained by that sort of thing, systemd becomes a pretty inefficient hulk of a program you need to tear out.

I do think a lot of the headaches involving systemd would be simplified if the Linux space had any sort of standardization on how to wire it's tooling together, but outside of the POSIX standard (which doesn't really cover this side of things; POSIX is mainly about userspace utilities and APIs, not "how should an OS's system services behave"), there isn't any. People have rose-tinted glasses about wiring together different tiny tools, when the reality is that it was usually a pain in the ass and reliant on config flags, outdated manpages and so on. Just look at the seemingly simple question of "how do I configure DNS on Linux" and the literal 5 different ways in which it can be set since the "standard" proved to be inefficient the moment things get even a little bit more complex than a single network device handling a single connection. (Which sounds like it'd be the case, but may I introduce the concept of wifi?) Systemd being a big program avoids a lot of these issues.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#69
post #27

Love/hate systemd as I might, it's been rock solid everywhere I've used it, and I've used it heavily. It has it's quirks, as does the init-scripts that came before, and launchd on OSX (not sure what the modern equivalent is for MacOS). However, the systemd journal raw format is binary data and would much rather a plain text log. All things being equal I'd rather deal with human readable files.

> However, the systemd journal raw format is binary data and would much rather a plain text log. All things being equal I'd rather deal with human readable files.

It happens to be worse than text logs, worse than just spewing JSON to files, and entirely worse than most binary log formats. Every log line takes several times it would under text, duplicates a ton of info (like writing boot id in every entry) and somehow is not crash-proof (at least every non-clean shutdown gets me journald complaining about corrupt log files).

It's also dog slow in commands that matter (well documented in systemd bugs on github).

It should be just sqlite with some strategic indexes and tables. It's so bad.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unnecessary entanglements The problems with systemd are: * that once it was adopted, every single package started requiring it * which meant that packages that previously could run everywhere, now could only run on systemd-based systems * binary logs - a solution that solved nothing but created problems * which locked out any system that wasn't linux * which locked out any linux system that didn't want to use it *…

> * "bUt yOu DoNt hAVe tO uSE it" - tell that to the remote attestation crowd, of which Poettering is a founding member of. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572 - soon you'll have to use systemD because nothing else can be used. You're saying that because the person who made systemd now work on hardware attestation, all Linux distributions will eventually require remote hardware attestation, where users…

People have been saying this since day dot. It was very controversial for Debian to change to use systemd. The vote was close due to many arguments which are still being played out
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