A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit • Hacker News Board

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#61

Post by clarkm » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 7:37 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #51

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its both actually. Take the riots from the 60s and 70s, and the blight of the 80s (when I was there!), white flight led to a huge implosion of property taxes. They tried to make that up in business taxes, which then forced out the businesses, and the death spiral continues! Cities are pretty fragile places, one disruption can set off a chain reaction and...bam! It will take some revolutionary thinking to save Detroit…

> There is no great migration of people to red cities (cities in red states with low taxes), and even those red cities are quite blue (Atlanta in Georgia, Houston in Texas). Cities are just against libertarian principles, dense societies need to pull resources together to survive and thrive. As someone who lived in Atlanta for a long time and now lives in Chicago, I find the idea that southern boom cities are less ta…

You act like the local Democratic party in Atlanta is the exact same ideologically as the party in Chicago, which is definitely not true.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#62

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 10:58 AM UTC

clarkm wrote: post #61

rayiner wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no great migration of people to red cities (cities in red states with low taxes), and even those red cities are quite blue (Atlanta in Georgia, Houston in Texas). Cities are just against libertarian principles, dense societies need to pull resources together to survive and thrive. As someone who lived in Atlanta for a long time and now lives in Chicago, I find the idea that southern boom cities are less ta…

You act like the local Democratic party in Atlanta is the exact same ideologically as the party in Chicago, which is definitely not true.

All politics is local, but Atlanta democrats aren't blue dogs. Their constituency is very urban, which means they will be more liberal than say a democrat who represents farmland in North Dakota.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#63

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 11:00 AM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #59

rayiner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes…

Isn't that just the headquarters trick? Someone like Wells Fargo is SF-based and someone like Chase is NY-based, yet economic activity of those two is happening all around the world, and just gets reported in SF and NY.

Yep. Cities act to attract and redistribute capital, this has been true probably for the last 6 or 7000 years (Babylon, Athens).

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#64

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 11:00 AM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #59

rayiner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes…

Isn't that just the headquarters trick? Someone like Wells Fargo is SF-based and someone like Chase is NY-based, yet economic activity of those two is happening all around the world, and just gets reported in SF and NY.

[deleted]

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#65

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 11:00 AM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #59

rayiner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes…

Isn't that just the headquarters trick? Someone like Wells Fargo is SF-based and someone like Chase is NY-based, yet economic activity of those two is happening all around the world, and just gets reported in SF and NY.

[deleted]

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#66

Post by beedogs » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 1:08 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #14

rickyconnolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

> How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? Yes, he could - but not because it's anarchy, but because it's actually legal for anyone to do that in the state of Michigan. It's one of the better states, as far as gun laws go. The line is drawn where the cops have resources to enforce. Rape, murder, armed robbery, major…

> It's one of the better states, as far as gun laws go.

That seems like a very subjective measurement.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#67

Post by beedogs » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 1:18 PM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #19

rickyconnolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.

[citation needed]

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#68

Post by jmccree » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 1:27 PM UTC

steiza wrote: post #34

sneak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

Detroit is not, as some comments are suggesting, in a state of anarchy. Yes, there is crime, similar to other major American cities with crime problems (like St. Louis or Atlanta). Yes, because of depopulation it is hard to get groceries, do your banking, or catch public transportation. But this does not mean the 700,000ish Americans who live in the city proper live in "anarchy". In Michigan's Upper Peninsula there a…

Living in Atlanta, I wouldn't think to compare our current crime state to anywhere near Detroit or St. Louis, but this post made me curious how we actually compare. A quick check of homicide and rape stats show both cities at twice or more our rate. I think the real story is the incomes per city:

  Atlanta, Median household: $45k, Per capita: $35k
  St Louis, Median household: $29k, Per capita: $18k
  Detroit, Median household: $25k, Per capita: $14k

I suspect like Atlanta's reputation for crime, Detroit's is also overblown, but there seems to be a real difference that shows Detroit is still a bit farther behind on the path to urban revitalization.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#69

Post by tsotha » Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 8:12 PM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #67

tsotha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.

[citation needed]

Or not.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#70

Post by sneak » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 2:46 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #23

tsotha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.

The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes…

> The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people.

This is demonstrably false.

I grew up in Detroit and moved away at 23 because the economy sucked and I could make a bunch more money just about anywhere else. Race doesn't even begin to factor in to it.

(I was born in the city, raised in the suburbs, moved downtown at 18.)