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A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

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Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#11

Post by matznerd »

mukaiji wrote: post #4

It's an interesting experiment. If it succeeds, it would be ironic that the solution to America's public transportation is coming from Detroit: after all, GM & co are the guys who bought America's trolleys in the 1950's and disassembled them to boost sales of cars. EDIT: related story on SF's private lines http://stamen.com/zero1/

I've heard that NYC had an incredible trolley system where you could get anywhere in manhattan in about 10 minutes. Such a shame that cars displaced true public transit solutions.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#12

Post by rickyconnolly »

sneak wrote: post #7
rickyconnolly wrote: post #5

As a European, I don't understand the significance of this. Why is the establishment of a private bus company such a big deal? Is this not America, bastion of free market capitalism? Surely many cities must have private services. Here in Ireland we have many private bus services running alongside public companies.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#13

Post by tijs »

aristidb wrote: post #2

If they need to be five times more efficient, why is the plan to spend a lot of money on things that do not directly impact customer service, like giving away rides to poor people, and using self-produced Biodiesel?

because great businesses, for both customers and employees, are not built on pure efficiency.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#14

Post by sneak »

rickyconnolly wrote: post #12
sneak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

> How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn?

Yes, he could - but not because it's anarchy, but because it's actually legal for anyone to do that in the state of Michigan. It's one of the better states, as far as gun laws go.

The line is drawn where the cops have resources to enforce. Rape, murder, armed robbery, major assaults - they usually get to these things. Interestingly, traffic tickets, too - revenue is important.

Everything else, not so much.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#15

Post by akgerber »

matznerd wrote: post #11
mukaiji wrote: post #4

It's an interesting experiment. If it succeeds, it would be ironic that the solution to America's public transportation is coming from Detroit: after all, GM & co are the guys who bought America's trolleys in the 1950's and disassembled them to boost sales of cars. EDIT: related story on SF's private lines http://stamen.com/zero1/

I've heard that NYC had an incredible trolley system where you could get anywhere in manhattan in about 10 minutes. Such a shame that cars displaced true public transit solutions.

That isn't right. NYC's trolleys/buses were more efficient in the pre-automobile era when there was much less other traffic to block them, but Manhattan is about two miles wide and about 15 miles long; covering even 10 miles in 10 minutes would mean travelling at 60mph on city streets without stopping, and mass transit obviously needs to stop at least every couple miles. The express subway lines still take you up & down the island as quickly as ever (about 25 minutes from 125th St. to the Battery, apparently).

Manhattan's mass transit system is largely intact from its peak (except for the incomplete Second Avenue Subway, to replace the demolished Second Avenue Elevated the East Side), and has become better integrated from the private era when there were three competing systems. The trolley lines were more significant in the outer boroughs, and could reach speeds & frequencies similar to their best years with proper implementation of modern light rail or bus rapid transit. That would require the political will to take away surface right-of-way from the (boisterous, wealthier) car-driving minority.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#16

Post by antidoh »

ebiester wrote: post #6

What I don't understand is how the Jitney hasn't been allowed by regulation in the US -- they're incredibly convenient, and a fleet of minivans from the key districts to various park n' ride locations would make a ton of sense.

Don't the Googs and FBooks do almost exactly that, for employees? Not much of a step to do it for the paying public. Maybe the fiction of some association would get by current regulation/monopoly.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#17

Post by rayiner »

ihsw wrote: post #10
sneak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

By anarchy you mean lack of government-enforced order rather than simply lack of order, right?

There is no practical distinction.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#18

Post by akgerber »

This is a party bus service to allow bar hopping in a car-dependent city when passengers are too intoxicated to drive. It only runs on Friday & Saturday nights between a couple of suburban bars & the downtown & university district of Detroit. It might well be a good business (and certainly better than drunk driving), but it's not a meaningful substitute for functional mass transit.

Public transit systems require subsidy to permit service at unprofitable times of day & to unprofitable regions of the city, interconnecting parts of a region to permit greater economic activity. Roadway systems are likewise unprofitable on their own. Most transit systems have at least a couple lines that are profitable.

In the New York City area, there is significant "dollar van" jitney service & a large number of private bus companies, especially in New Jersey that provide commuter service, rather than serving as a substitute for drunk driving. Dollar vans of varying legalities are also common between Chinatowns & Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods, as well as down Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn.

Flatbush Avenue also an easy place to observe the downside to privatized transit run by independent contractors-- the vans usually speed & make dangerous maneuvers to move more fares more quickly, with the safety of other motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists often disregarded. This could be improved by the NYPD enforcing traffic laws, which would be my preference to replacing a useful service.

Unfortunately, nearly all American cities have onerous regulation on selling automobile rides to other people, while it's incredibly easy to get a driver's license and private automobile. This raises taxi prices & means there often isn't timely bus/jitney service between popular destinations, which motivates a lot more people to purchase cars & drive them.

The cost in car ownership is also mostly in the depreciation of the car & insurance (which is monthly, rather than per-mile), so once a person purchases an automobile because they can't make a few trips by walking/biking/transit, they'll make a lot more trips by car.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#19

Post by tsotha »

rickyconnolly wrote: post #12
sneak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#20

Post by johnrgrace »

rickyconnolly wrote: post #12
sneak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

I think Detroit could have an economic revival if they just took a portion of the city build walls around it and made it an anything goes zone where you can do whatever you want.

But why would you hire armed guards when you can hire off duty police officers who will wear their uniforms while they work for you? Yes, you can do this legally!

Also the local police, as part of a labor action, are now WARNING people Attention: Enter Detroit at your Own Risk

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