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I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

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Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#101

Post by ixacto »

ignignokt wrote: post #90
ixacto wrote: post #87

Imagine if a 17 year-old Saudi/Persian/Pakistani girl decided to wear a tube-top and skinny jeans and no hair-covering out on the town in Mecca or Qom or Islamabad. I am sure the only response would be remarks from children who are not yet attuned to social norms, e.g. not commenting on peoples appearances. After all, we do live in a globalized society.

So the fact that there's discrimination in other countries makes it OK?

The point that I was attempting to convey was that tolerance needs to be a part of both cultures. We as westerners cannot be reasonably expected to treat Islamic culture as equal to Western culture if we treat it with 'kid gloves', or make meaningless accommodations in the name of political correctness.

I am not afraid to say that I have a relatively low opinion of the current Islamic culture. Sure it may have been great 1000 years ago, but with the executions for homosexuality, stoning in Pakistan/Afghanistan, and murder of westerners [Theo van Gogh et al] not to mention the horrible treatment of women, it honestly just pisses me off. Mabey in some parts of majority-Muslim nations it isn't that bad after all, but it doesn't really matter as I am unlikely to have much contact with strict Muslims in the first place.

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#102

Post by wpietri »

guylhem wrote: post #94
wpietri wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude, and also poorly thought through. You're spinning imaginary scenarios and then getting your balls in an uproar about them. Relax. Ela did not "play the victim"; she is not asking for sympathy. She did not sabotage herself; she is whole and unharmed. I also am dumbfounded that you think it's offensive to victims of discrimination to try to understand them by experiencing discrimination.

I'm sorry it got me in an uproar, but I really think what she did is offensive. She made a change, noticed the negative difference - end of the story. Some people may want to make a change (even if they know it's vain to try and conform to other people expectations) to try and experience a positive difference - but they can't. What is offensive to me is how unfair it is for some people to complain about they own choi…

You might have a point. If she complained about her choice, that is. She didn't, though.

She said, "This experiment gave me a huge wakeup call." That's the opposite of a personal complaint; she's thankful for her experience.

Are you also offended by the book "Black Like Me"? Because I've never heard an actual black person be upset about it.

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#103

Post by YuriNiyazov »

ktizo wrote: post #100
guylhem wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it all depends on one's utility function. If you think that in life, suffering is a good thing, or that some things are more important that your own happiness, yes they are.

Perhaps there is a bit more to life than a 'utility function'.

No there isn't. That's the beauty of a 'utility function' - it _is_ the "what there is to life".

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#104

Post by icebraining »

jh3 wrote: post #83
lucb1e wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't believe in a religion because it's convenient. If it were simple like that, everybody'd be atheist, there are no rules attached to that whatsoever. People have a belief because they believe. Or perhaps because they think a certain lifestyle is a good one (isn't that what bhuddism is? I know too little about this...).

> People don't believe in a religion because it's convenient. How is it convenient _not_ believing in a religion?

Most religions impose obligations, from tithing to attending Mass. I don't see how it is not convenient.

Which is not to say that convenience should be the important factor in any such decision.

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#105

Post by supersaiyan »

ktizo wrote: post #50
Jach wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us have walked in the others' shoes, at least in this limited case of discrimination based solely on clothing. Guess what? Humans discriminate on clothing! You can drum up the social justice network and try to remove this neural programming without drugs, good luck with that. You can try and fight it, again, sincerely, good luck, I agree that clothing is irrelevant when judging other people, but I don't think…

If I were a muslim girl getting discriminated against for wearing a hijab, I'd stop wearing the hijab. So you would, I guess, also suggest that Sikhs should stop wearing turbans, Jews should stop wearing a kippah, nuns should stop wearing habits, pagans should stop wearing pentangles, etc. Not only is your suggestion frankly both offensive and pretty idiotic, but the world it would lead to would have even more discri…

Its a matter of psychological dissonance; when you're under that much pressure, you either change your thought (ignore the haters) or change your actions (stop wearing Hijab), it's a subjective thing, no point on arguing whats right or wrong here.

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#106

Post by icebraining »

guylhem wrote: post #97
icebraining wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things are worth being unhappy about. "The more we gave in, the more we complied with that kind of treatment, the more oppressive it became."

I guess it all depends on one's utility function. If you think that in life, suffering is a good thing, or that some things are more important that your own happiness, yes they are.

Even if you only consider personal happiness as important, you should reflect on the quote I posted. Some temporary unhappiness and struggle may be preferable in the long run.

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#107

Post by supersaiyan »

LockeWatts wrote: post #80
wpietri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrible analogy. People aren't discriminating because they think hijabs are unfashionable. They're discriminating because they correctly interpret the hijab as a religious marker. Did you notice that your advice basically amounts to "do your best to look like a straight, white, middle-class Christian"? And that you are basically blaming the victim? Both strike me as terrible advice.

How about we just look like people, not religious entities? Never understood why people like wearing symbols of oppression.

"like wearing symbols of oppression?" - According to whom is this a symbol of oppression? This is exactly the problem, if you ever to encounter a girl with a hijab you would automatically treat her differently because of her clothing, you've already attributed a persons religious clothing as a form of oppression. The point is to be respectful of others beliefs, not judge based on your own.

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#108

Post by ignignokt »

ixacto wrote: post #101
ignignokt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the fact that there's discrimination in other countries makes it OK?

The point that I was attempting to convey was that tolerance needs to be a part of both cultures. We as westerners cannot be reasonably expected to treat Islamic culture as equal to Western culture if we treat it with 'kid gloves', or make meaningless accommodations in the name of political correctness. I am not afraid to say that I have a relatively low opinion of the current Islamic culture. Sure it may have been g…

But the person who wrote this article was presumably playing the part of an American Muslim, so what do other countries have to do with this at all? It's OK to be prejudice against Muslims from your own country because some Muslims in other countries aren't nice people?

Re: I went to the mall, and a little girl called me a terrorist.

#109

Post by ktizo »

YuriNiyazov wrote: post #103
ktizo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps there is a bit more to life than a 'utility function'.

No there isn't. That's the beauty of a 'utility function' - it _is_ the "what there is to life".

Only from a very narrow set of perspectives. There are many perspectives on life and for many of them a 'utility function' would seem nonsensical at best. Economics is not as all-encompassing a discipline as some people would like to make out.
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