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A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

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Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#41

Post by jivatmanx »

rickyconnolly wrote: post #28
tsotha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.

I am actually sympathetic to many aspects of libertarian thinking on matters of social and economic policy. I certainly was not railing against this worldview, though I apologies if you found negative connotations in my use of the word 'rabbithole'.

Hmm, I somewhat thought you were, because the term "Utopia" is usually used sarcastically when applied to Libertarianism, and often mentioned with Somalia.

As for Detroit, as long as gangs don't fill the void, it could certainly be a great example of spontaneous order arising.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#42

Post by jivatmanx »

Evbn wrote: post #31
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxi companies are required to service the whole city. If you allowed jitney service without that requirement in popular areas, the taxi services couldn't compete.

This seems easy fixable by subsidizing fares to unpopular areas, financed by a tax in fares in popular areas.

Governments tend to think in terms of Bans and Mandates, rather than taxes and subsidies.

The result is poorer, more expensive services, limited to ancient business models.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#43

Post by astrodust »

jivatmanx wrote: post #42
Evbn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems easy fixable by subsidizing fares to unpopular areas, financed by a tax in fares in popular areas.

Governments tend to think in terms of Bans and Mandates, rather than taxes and subsidies. The result is poorer, more expensive services, limited to ancient business models.

More specifically: Lobbyists tend to pursue an agenda of bans and mandates, and so long as your political system is dependent on the interests of lobbyists and their associated campaign financing, these goals will often be achieved.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#44

Post by rayiner »

astrodust wrote: post #43
jivatmanx wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments tend to think in terms of Bans and Mandates, rather than taxes and subsidies. The result is poorer, more expensive services, limited to ancient business models.

More specifically: Lobbyists tend to pursue an agenda of bans and mandates, and so long as your political system is dependent on the interests of lobbyists and their associated campaign financing, these goals will often be achieved.

More specifically, you're just making up theories.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#45

Post by tsotha »

rayiner wrote: post #23
tsotha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.

The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes…

>The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people.

This is wrong. You think one day all the white people said "Hey, wait a minute! We've been living next to black people for generations, and that has to stop"? It's not the taxes on people that are the problem, it's the taxes and regulations on businesses. Detroit took the attitude the car companies would always be around no matter what stupid rule the city came up with. The problem is businesses come and go. If your city sucks for business, more go than come and eventually you're Detroit.

>It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes from just seven heavily regulated, heavily taxed metros: NY, LA, Chicago, DC, Philly, SF, and Boston. And it's not just population, these cities only account for 20% of the US population.

Yes, and eventually those places will end up like Detroit. Hell, NYC almost went that way in the '70s and was only rescued by the financial industry they seem intent on driving away today.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#46

Post by steiza »

jlgreco wrote: post #36
steiza wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Detroit is not, as some comments are suggesting, in a state of anarchy. Yes, there is crime, similar to other major American cities with crime problems (like St. Louis or Atlanta). Yes, because of depopulation it is hard to get groceries, do your banking, or catch public transportation. But this does not mean the 700,000ish Americans who live in the city proper live in "anarchy". In Michigan's Upper Peninsula there a…

If you have a city that gets comparable service as relatively remote rural areas, then yeah, it pretty much is an anarchy. The only thing that you can fairly compare a city to is other cities. As far as cities in America goes, I think it is fair to say that many attributes of Detroit are very reminiscent of an anarchy. There may be better examples, but Detroit stands out for its former prominence.

I can assure you Detroit has "normal" services like city water, garbage collection, electricity, and the majority of roads are maintained (even if 100% of them don't get plowed during the winter). I still don't see how anyone can say that is "reminiscent of anarchy". Is there an anarchy you lived in that it is reminiscent of?

Downtown Detroit has two major sports teams (the Tigers and the Red Wings), renown cultural attractions like the Detroit Institute of Arts and the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, the world headquarters of a few companies like Quicken Loans and General Motors... the characterization of downtown in this thread is really bordering on the absurd...

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#47

Post by jerf »

jivatmanx wrote: post #41
rickyconnolly wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am actually sympathetic to many aspects of libertarian thinking on matters of social and economic policy. I certainly was not railing against this worldview, though I apologies if you found negative connotations in my use of the word 'rabbithole'.

Hmm, I somewhat thought you were, because the term "Utopia" is usually used sarcastically when applied to Libertarianism, and often mentioned with Somalia. As for Detroit, as long as gangs don't fill the void, it could certainly be a great example of spontaneous order arising.

There's a world of difference between libertarianism and anarchism. Part of the reason why I'm a libertarian is that I think it's really important for government to stay focused on the things it is actually important for it to do, such as public safety and fire protection (among other things), because when it gets too big and too bloated and eventually collapses, the whole thing comes down, not just the big and bloated parts.

Too many people, especially in comfortable first-world countries, have political ideologies that don't account for the fact that governments can fail and/or collapse, in whole or in part. When you rush to centralize every service you can on that foundation, you are putting a lot of eggs in one basket, and it's not a magical invincible basket... it's just a basket.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#48

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tsotha wrote: post #45
rayiner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes…

>The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. This is wrong. You think one day all the white people said "Hey, wait a minute! We've been living next to black people for generations, and that has to stop"? It's not the taxes on people that are the problem, it's the taxes and regulations on businesses. Detroit took the attitude the car companies would always be around…

Its both actually. Take the riots from the 60s and 70s, and the blight of the 80s (when I was there!), white flight led to a huge implosion of property taxes. They tried to make that up in business taxes, which then forced out the businesses, and the death spiral continues! Cities are pretty fragile places, one disruption can set off a chain reaction and...bam! It will take some revolutionary thinking to save Detroit.

You are completely wrong that "those places" will turn out like Detroit. Their ecosystems are very healthy, NYC went from bankrupt in the 70s, via some good public policy and not just wall street, back to the premiere world city that it was. The only at risk city on the list is Philly, but it seems to be doing pretty well recently. These are healthy ecosystems, even with taxes (or you could say, using taxes to pay the police to enforce laws is a good thing).

There is no great migration of people to red cities (cities in red states with low taxes), and even those red cities are quite blue (Atlanta in Georgia, Houston in Texas). Cities are just against libertarian principles, dense societies need to pull resources together to survive and thrive.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#49

Post by rayiner »

tsotha wrote: post #45
rayiner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes…

>The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. This is wrong. You think one day all the white people said "Hey, wait a minute! We've been living next to black people for generations, and that has to stop"? It's not the taxes on people that are the problem, it's the taxes and regulations on businesses. Detroit took the attitude the car companies would always be around…

> This is wrong. You think one day all the white people said "Hey, wait a minute!

Pretty much exactly this, between school desegregation and the construction of interstates through the cities that made suburban commutes easier.

> Yes, and eventually those places will end up like Detroit. Hell, NYC almost went that way in the '70s and was only rescued by the financial industry they seem intent on driving away today.

All of these cities have growing GDPs and populations. Some are growing faster, like Houston or Atlanta, but that was driven by cheap housing and has collapsed dramatically with the end of the housing boom. Indeed, the country is urbanizing and more people are moving into the cities.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#50

Post by paulhauggis »

rickyconnolly wrote: post #12
sneak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

sigh. Right, because less government in our lives equates to anarchy and no laws.
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