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Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

bbc.com

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Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#491

Post by andrepd »

kstenerud wrote: post #148
jandrewrogers wrote: post #71

This just adds confusion as to the purpose of all this. The motivation behind the liquid limits is that there are extremely powerful explosives that are stable water-like liquids. Average people have never heard of them because they aren’t in popular lore. There has never been an industrial or military use, solids are simpler. Nonetheless, these explosives are easily accessible to a knowledgeable chemist like me. The…

It's about making people feel safe. We're not rational beings, so what do you do about an irrational fear? You invent a magical thing that protects from that irrational fear. You're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a road accident, but people don't fear that. They fear terrorist attacks far more. You can't protect against an opponent who's motivated to learn the inherent vulnerabilities of our systems, many…

> You're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a road accident, but people don't fear that. They fear terrorist attacks far more.

On the contrary, a competent and responsible government should counter the hysteria, not enable it. It should protect citizens from car crashes rather than making a 18-lane highways through residential areas, and it should implement effective measures that reduce effective risk and panic regarding airline attacks, instead of pushing the fear even further with TSA.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#492

Post by thomassmith65 »

kebman wrote: post #471
thomassmith65 wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to take down a skyscraper with a train. Yes, 'shop terrorism' can be a problem (see: the UK during the Troubles). I do agree with the implication that society must tolerate a certain amount of terrorism to avoid turning into a police state. That does not mean that airplane terrorism, without strict security, is so rare that we can ignore it.

This is probably a massive downvote waiting to happen, but I have more faith in 9/11 being a controlled demo. Not out of evil. Just to prevent New York turning into a giant domino show.

My theory is that terrorists hijacked two airliners full with jet fuel, and crashed them into each WTC tower, causing the structure to weaken from the heat and fail.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#493

Post by cucumber3732842 »

swiftcoder wrote: post #429
mlrtime wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>do feel like they're doing something important First I agree TSA is mostly theater... however if you HAD to have it, you want the people to work like this. I might be old-school but I think everyone should have pride and responsibility in their work. Even if from the outside it is meaningless. 100% no reason to be a bully, that is not pride/responsibility. Every job has ass assholes.

> Every job has ass assholes. Yeah, but jobs that are police-adjacent have them at a very high rate. Almost like they select for it or something...

>Yeah, but jobs that are police-adjacent have them at a very high rate. Almost like they select for it or something...

Proximity to violence is probably the measuring stick you're looking for.

Police spend the bulk of their day credibly threatening violence. Just about every word that comes out of their mouth, pen or keyboard while they're at work is implicitly back by an "or else". Everyone who isn't an asshole is gonna wash out of that job, start doing something behind a desk, start a PI firm, etc. etc. So you're left with rookie and assholes and the occasional exception.

The TSA, all your non-police state and municipal enforcement agencies, etc, etc, are gonna serve to concentrate "asshole lites" people because anybody who isn't will have issues spending their day dispensing what are basically "do as I say, or pay what I say, or else the police will do violence on you" threats on behalf of the state and so they'll jump ship as they become jaded same as cops do, but the pressures are less because they're not as proximate to the violence.

You can take this a third step out. There are all sorts of industries, jobs, etc, etc. that exist soley to keep the above two groups off your back. Nobody wants to hire these people, but are basically forced to under 3rd hand thread of violence. Same effect, but still watered down.

Even more removed are jobs where some fraction of the business is driven to you under similar circumstances. For example, ask any mechanic. People forced to be there by a state inspection program are consistently the worst customers. And there's the same wash out effect. People get tired of arguing about tread depth or whatever and they go turn wrenches on forklifts or whatever.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#494

Post by Scoundreller »

angry_octet wrote: post #470
fc417fc802 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people say "water" here I have to assume they mean "vodka". Otherwise you can just bring an empty bottle and fill it on the other side. It's the toiletries that pose a problem.

I've been in many airports where there is no water on the other side of the X-ray. At KLIA and DPS they have none to buy even, and then you have to fight for it on the plane. At CDG you have to buy it, no water fountain. It's extremely aggravating.

I’ve definitely found free water fountains at CDG.

Now, one of the Bucharest airports literally does not have potable tap water. Their well, being under an airport and all, is contaminated. By email, they did inform me that the water is microbiologically fine. Unsure of their pipe to the municipal system was been built out.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#495

Post by andrepd »

WalterBright wrote: post #162
kstenerud wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about making people feel safe. We're not rational beings, so what do you do about an irrational fear? You invent a magical thing that protects from that irrational fear. You're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a road accident, but people don't fear that. They fear terrorist attacks far more. You can't protect against an opponent who's motivated to learn the inherent vulnerabilities of our systems, many…

> You're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a road accident, but people don't fear that. They fear terrorist attacks far more. This can be traced to people in a car believe they can control whether they have an accident or not (and largely can). In an airplane, however, you have no control whatsoever.

Crucially, deaths among pedestrians and cyclists are skyrocketing in the last decade; those people can't really "control" whether the 4-ton SUV with a 6' high bumper mows them and their kids down.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#497

Post by MonkeyClub »

swiftcoder wrote: post #429
mlrtime wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>do feel like they're doing something important First I agree TSA is mostly theater... however if you HAD to have it, you want the people to work like this. I might be old-school but I think everyone should have pride and responsibility in their work. Even if from the outside it is meaningless. 100% no reason to be a bully, that is not pride/responsibility. Every job has ass assholes.

> Every job has ass assholes. Yeah, but jobs that are police-adjacent have them at a very high rate. Almost like they select for it or something...

Probably the reverse: obnoxious people who seek badge-given authority but fail police entry exams (e.g. the psych part), carry on to other forms of employment that offer badges and uniforms, but have lax standards.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#498

Post by morpheuskafka »

edm0nd wrote: post #87
jandrewrogers wrote: post #71

This just adds confusion as to the purpose of all this. The motivation behind the liquid limits is that there are extremely powerful explosives that are stable water-like liquids. Average people have never heard of them because they aren’t in popular lore. There has never been an industrial or military use, solids are simpler. Nonetheless, these explosives are easily accessible to a knowledgeable chemist like me. The…

Correct. In the US, the TSA is just a government jobs program for the lowly skilled or unskilled. It's all security theater. TSA Chief Out After Agents Fail 95 Percent of Airport Breach Tests "In one case, an alarm sounded, but even during a pat-down, the screening officer failed to detect a fake plastic explosive taped to an undercover agent's back. In all, so-called "Red Teams" of Homeland Security agents posing as…

> Correct. In the US, the TSA is just a government jobs program for the lowly skilled or unskilled.

This is oft repeated, but as a federal job, the bar is at least slightly higher than those typical AlliedUniversal/Andy Frain/Etc mall cop guards you see all over the place. I have no doubt that many are incompetent, but I think it is a big unfair that it gets singled out as a "jobs program" given that the bar is on the floor industrywide for security.

An interesting comparison would be FPS, which is the agency that does security checks for federal buildings, also under DHS same as TSA. They are armed despite many of them having an indoor only role (a few do patrol larger campuses outdoors). Thus, I suspect the requirements are somewhat higher. They are generally more thorough in my experience, except for one time where they did not notice one of my shoes got stuck and didn't go through the X ray, which is funny because they insist on all dress shoes being scanned as they have a tiny metal bar inside. The same shoes go through TSA just fine.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#499

Post by morpheuskafka »

grepfru_it wrote: post #208
JasonADrury wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I routinely conceal large bottles of liquids on my person while going through airport security. I've probably gone through airport security in various places with a 1.5L bottle of water more than a hundred times now. Haven't been caught once, although of course the US-style scanners could presumably defeat this. Same with hot sauces, perfume and the occasional bottles of wine. I really don't like to travel with a che…

A plastic water bottle isn’t triggering a tsa pre check metal detector. I’m totally doing this next trip

They could theoretically revoke precheck for doing this, but my guess is they won't because it is a believable accident (just like people leave them in their bag all the time) and given that the sign warning about firearms mentions that even that is just a five year suspension, not permanent, my guess is they wouldn't even bother for an harmless item.

Re: Heathrow scraps liquid container limit

#500

Post by account42 »

mlrtime wrote: post #385
fc417fc802 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying they fined you for picking someone up in the drop off area? If so that's pretty wild. It's all just traffic at the end of the day.

I do that all the time in certain airports when the drop off is essentially empty with 0 line but pickup is a half mile row of cars.

Kinda antisocial. If everyone acted like you the drop off would be clogged as well and some people would miss their flights.
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