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After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

atmoio.substack.com

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Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#161

Post by Isamu »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

Same with essay assignments, you exercise different neural pathways by doing it yourself.

Recently in comments people were claiming that working with LLMs has sharpened their ability to organize thoughts, and that could be a real effect that would be interesting to study. It could be that watching an LLM organize a topic could provide a useful example of how to approach organizing your own thoughts.

But until you do it unassisted you haven’t learned how to do it.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#162

Post by hennell »

frankc wrote: post #46
orev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like weightlifting: sure you can use a forklift to do it, but if the goal is to build up your own strength, using the forklift isn’t going to get you there. This is the ultimate problem with AI in academia. We all inherently know that “no pain no gain” is true for physical tasks, but the same is true for learning. Struggling through the new concepts is essentially the point of it, not just the end result. Of cou…

I think this is a pretty solid analogy but I look at the metaphor this way - people used to get strong naturally because they had to do physical labor. Because we invented things like the forklift we had to invent things like weightlifting to get strong instead. You can still get strong, you just need to be more deliberate about it. It doesn't mean shouldn't also use a forklift, which is its own distinct skill you al…

>if the goal is to build up your own strength I think you missed this line. If the goal is just to move weights or lift the most - forklift away. If you want to learn to use a forklift, drive on and best of luck. But if you're trying to get stronger the forklift will not help that goal.

Like many educational tests the outcome is not the point - doing the work to get there is. If you're asked to code fizz buzz it's not because the teacher needs you to solve fizz buzz for them, it's because you will learn things while you make it. Ai, copying stack overflow, using someone's code from last year, it all solves the problem while missing the purpose of the exercise. You're not learning - and presumably that is your goal.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#165

Post by Painsawman123 »

In the long run, vb coding is going to undoubtedly rot people’s skills.if AGI is not showing up anytime soon, actually understanding what the code does,why it exists,how it breaks and who owns the fallout will matter just as much as it did before LLM agents showed up

it'll be really interesting to see in the decades to come what happens when a whole industry gets used to releasing black boxes by vb coding the hell out of it

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#166

Post by nonethewiser »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

But what has changed? Students never had a natural reason to learn how to write fizz buzz. It's been done before and its not even useful. There has always been a arbitrary nature to these exercises.

I actually fear more for the middle-of-career dev who has shunned AI as worthless. It's easier than ever for juniors to learn and be productive.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#167

Post by yetihehe »

treetalker wrote: post #97
orev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like weightlifting: sure you can use a forklift to do it, but if the goal is to build up your own strength, using the forklift isn’t going to get you there. This is the ultimate problem with AI in academia. We all inherently know that “no pain no gain” is true for physical tasks, but the same is true for learning. Struggling through the new concepts is essentially the point of it, not just the end result. Of cou…

Misusing a forklift might injure the driver and a few others; but it is unlikely to bring down an entire electric grid, expose millions to fraud and theft, put innocent people in prison, or jeopardize the institutions of government. There is more than one kind of leverage at play here.

> but it is unlikely to bring down an entire electric grid

Unless you happen to drive a forklift in a power plant.

> expose millions to fraud and theft

You can if you drive forklift in a bank.

> put innocent people in prison

You can use forklift to put several innocent people in prison with one trip, they have pretty high capacity.

> jeopardize the institutions of government.

It's pretty easy with a forklift, just try driving through main gate.

> There is more than one kind of leverage at play here.

Forklifts typically have several axes of travel.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#168

Post by flankstaek »

Maybe I'm "vibecoding" wrong but to me at least this misses a clear step which is reviewing the code.

I think coding with an AI changes our role from code writer to code reviewer, and you have to treat it as a comprehensive review where you comment not just on code "correctness" but these other aspects the author mentions, how functions fits together, codebase patterns, architectural implications. While I feel like using AI might have made me a lazier coder, it's made me a me a significantly more active reviewer which I think at least helps to bridge the gap the author is referencing.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#169

Post by nonethewiser »

Isamu wrote: post #161
recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

Same with essay assignments, you exercise different neural pathways by doing it yourself. Recently in comments people were claiming that working with LLMs has sharpened their ability to organize thoughts, and that could be a real effect that would be interesting to study. It could be that watching an LLM organize a topic could provide a useful example of how to approach organizing your own thoughts. But until you do…

The natural solution is right there in front of us but we hate to admit it because it still involves LLMs and changes on the teaching side. Just raise the bar until they struggle.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#170

Post by acessoproibido »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

I'm not so sure. I spent A LOT of time writing sorting algo code by hand in university. I spent so much time writing assembly code by hand. So much more time writing instructions for MIPS by hand. (To be fair I did study EE not CS)

I learned more about programming in a weekend badly copying hack modules for Minecraft than I learned in 5+ years in university.

All that stuff I did by hand back then I haven't used it a single time after.

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