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Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

iranintl.com

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Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#151

Post by bawolff »

PlatoIsADisease wrote: post #74
bawolff wrote: post #29

That's crazy. That's like ~40% of the deaths in the current gaza war, except over just 2 days instead of 2 years.

I've read a ton of philosophy and something I don't really understand is that one nation killing another is more immoral than when a nation does this to their own domestic population. Sure you will get some nay-sayers who say 'a life is a life', if moral particles existed, they might be correct. But for some reason, humanity doesn't seem to care as much. What makes intra-state politics more acceptable to use violence…

Historically there was sometimes the idea that citizens are the property of the sovereign to use or dispose of as he sees fit. A lot of historical international law had the view that states have absolute feeedom to conduct their internal affairs however they saw fit.

Luckily we have largely moved past that view.

I think as a purely practical matter, moral outrage is shaped by who controls the information space. If you are a country being invaded, you probably have an organized, well funded communication department to tell your side. If you are an Iranian protestor, not only do you not have that, you don't even have internet at all because the state cut off all means of communication.

Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#152

Post by Braxton1980 »

piekvorst wrote: post #150
Braxton1980 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>most philosophies explicitly champion dictatorships I don't understand how you could make this claim. "society is a big organ transcending individual needs”?" How does this statement by Hegel champion dictatorships?

> I don't understand how you could make this claim. After studying Plato, Hegel, Marx, Rousseau, fascist ideologies, Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill. This list is by no means exhaustive, just a few majors from the top of my head. Sure, they didn’t just say “shoot people for power.” That’s a very shallow modern view. Instead, they champion extreme forms of altruism and its only logical expression: statism, which h…

>For him, state is a sacred authority that transcends individual will.

State authority exists in democracys therefore that's not an argument for dictatorships

>they champion extreme forms of altruism and its only logical expression: statism

Why is statism the only logical expression of extreme altruism? Jesus Christ was the ultimate altruist and is not a state. I can dedicate my life to only helping others over myself as an individual .

You're arguments and example are extremely poor because you showing evidence related to governments and states but your original claim was to one specific type of government, a dictatorship.

Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#153

Post by jacquesm »

toyg wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can easily comprehend it, the history books are full of people killing large numbers of their own people. They just find some irrelevant differentiating factor that allows them to label the other as the outgroup and bring out the guns, the tanks, the ovens and the bombs.

Also, they know the alternative is that they will be dragged in the streets and killed. Iran is long past the point where a revolution can be peaceful and conciliatory; if the regime falls, there will be a redde rationem where most people connected to enforcement and decision-making will be very summarily judged by the people they abused for decades.

There was a post a while ago, I think it was here, pictures from Iran in the early 1970's. It looked absolutely amazing.

Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#154

Post by fwipsy »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #144
fwipsy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is the 17th most populous nation in the world, with 93 million people. These protests seem to be occurring across the entire nation. Another comment mentioned over 4,000 separate clashes. Other sources have already corroborated a lower bound in the mid-thousands. I think the burden is on you to refute these numbers by showing that the sources are deliberately misleading or finding a flaw in the methodology. Simp…

https://www.en-hrana.org/day-twenty-eight-of-the-protests-ar... This is the organisation most commonly cited in news reports, they estimate ~5200 protestors confirmed killed (+ a few hundred more for security personnel killed) They are a group of anti-regime Iranian dissidents based in the US. I don't know why they would seek to provide a deliberately low estimate.

Confirmed != estimated. This source does not make any estimates. They are investigating every death individually. Given the lack of transparency, the true number of deaths is likely higher than the number which can be confirmed at this time.

As of writing this comment, the subtitle says "The number of deaths currently under investigation stands at 17,031." They do not claim that this is the total number of deaths either.

30,000 is not confirmed but cannot be ruled out.

Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#155

Post by piekvorst »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #152
piekvorst wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand how you could make this claim. After studying Plato, Hegel, Marx, Rousseau, fascist ideologies, Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill. This list is by no means exhaustive, just a few majors from the top of my head. Sure, they didn’t just say “shoot people for power.” That’s a very shallow modern view. Instead, they champion extreme forms of altruism and its only logical expression: statism, which h…

>For him, state is a sacred authority that transcends individual will. State authority exists in democracys therefore that's not an argument for dictatorships >they champion extreme forms of altruism and its only logical expression: statism Why is statism the only logical expression of extreme altruism? Jesus Christ was the ultimate altruist and is not a state. I can dedicate my life to only helping others over mysel…

For Hegel, state is something vastly different than for modern democracies. Sure, democracies can be pervasive as well but, to my knowledge, nowhere near Hegel’s level, not today.

Jesus Christ wasn’t a politician so we don’t know. But we do know that religious politicians, past and modern, rarely respect freedom.

> you showing evidence related to governments and states

Not just states but statism, a system in which man’s life and work belong to the state, and the state may claim it by compelling him to sacrifice it. This provides the theoretical hardware for dictatorial control.

Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#156

Post by bawolff »

vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #82
bawolff wrote: post #29

That's crazy. That's like ~40% of the deaths in the current gaza war, except over just 2 days instead of 2 years.

I can’t even imagine how this could be done. Nazi concentration camps would have had trouble killing that many in 2 days.

At its peak i think (based on googling) the nazis killed about 14,000 per day, which would put it in a similar ball park on a per-day basis. However they kept up the level of killing and didn't stop after just a few days.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/2846/

Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#157

Post by bawolff »

k1m wrote: post #112
TacticalCoder wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interesting that the same western media outlets which spent two years nonstop questioning and disputing and refusing to accept Palestinian death tolls out of Gaza, even when they were backed by human rights groups and monitors like Airwars and studies in The Lancet, are totally fine uncritically accepting totally unsourced and huge, huge numbers out of Iran. Note that this works both ways: "Interesting that the sam…

The crucial difference is that the US is in no way supporting Iran but was and is heavily supporting Israel. So a protest in the US to stop that support is wortwhile. A protest to stop non-existent support is pointless.

You can still protest to signal support for usa to keep its hardline stance on Iran or to increase measures.

You can also protest to make sure the horrors aren't forgotten and to signal to those suffering in Iran that they aren't alone.

Re: Over 36,500 killed in Iran's deadliest massacre, documents reveal

#160

Post by dominicrose »

bawolff wrote: post #29

That's crazy. That's like ~40% of the deaths in the current gaza war, except over just 2 days instead of 2 years.

There was a lot of death in 2 days but the revolution started about a month ago so it's not just those two days. I think you could compare Gaza to a single Iranian city, but Iran is much larger than this. Another important distinction is that - no matter what your beliefs are - civilians aren't the target in Gaza, but they clearly are the target in Iran. If the civilians had weapons, it would be a different story.
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