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We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

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Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#281

Post by 3D30497420 »

nottorp wrote: post #174
3D30497420 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the time zones are killer, and this can't be ignored 100% agree, especially when there is minimal overlap during normal office hours. I was managing a dev team in India from the US and it was a real challenge. The company ended up moving team to the US, relocating most of my team. Despite all the people being the same, management became much easier. Since then I've done US and EU, and EU and IN, and those have all…

If you needed 8 hour overlap you were micromanaging? Was that because of the above cultural differences?

> If you needed 8 hour overlap you were micromanaging?

...ok. I didn't need 8 hours of overlap.

As I mentioned in my first comment, I've also now done US/EU and EU/IN. Both of which have only partial overlap and things have gone well.

With US West Coast and India, I was often doing meetings at 7AM and my devs were doing meetings at 9 or 10PM. That was challenging, irrespective of any cultural differences.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#282

Post by conductr »

freakynit wrote: post #126
causalscience wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indian students Is this cultural? I ran a small business some years ago (later failed) and was paying for contract work to various people. At the I perceived the pattern that Indian contractors would never ever ask for clarifications, would never say they didn't know something, would never say they didn't understand something, etc. Instead they just ran with whatever they happened to have in their mind, until I cal…

Indian here (~15+ years in tech). I've seen this behavior a lot, and unfortunately, I did some of this myself earlier in my career. Based on my own experience, here are a few reasons (could be a lot more): 1. Unlike most developed countries, in India (and many other develping countries), people in authority are expected to be respected unconditinally(almost). Questioning a manager, teacher, or senior is often seen as…

> Make it clear you are approachable and that asking questions is expected. For the first few weeks, work closely with them in the style you want them to follow.. they usually adapt very fast once they feel safe to do so.

Very true. I’ve hired (super cheap) engineering talent and this is the key to getting a project to run the way a westerner expects; where everyone is constantly open to challenging each other, where everyone can bring ideas to the table, and where there’s no such thing as a stupid question. I’ve done this during a big phase of time others locally shunning this huge talent pool as the results were crappy/unpredictable. Even to the point they’ll hire local for 100x the cost. It’s just a management problem though and a pretty simple one at that. The other thing is if you train them in your style, keep using them on the next project if you can. It compounds if you have the ability to work with them over a longer time. You have to be very insistent that you’re not proposing the best solution at expect them as engineers to point out any opportunities for improvement. If something later has to be rebuilt or isn’t working well, sometimes it’s good (if it makes sense, case by case) to do a post mortem and understand why the version 2 wasn’t built during the version 1. I think that helps them really understand it in a concrete way if they’re struggling with it.

In any case, I’d much rather take a budget for 1 local dev and spend it on a whole team of Indians and take on the management burden if it means retaining more equity or profits or building something I otherwise wouldn’t do myself due to scale.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#283

Post by koliber »

leephillips wrote: post #254
koliber wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen an interesting behavior in India. If I ask someone on the street for directions, they will always give me an answer, even if they don't know. If they don't know, they'll make something up. This was strange. I asked a lot of Indian people about it and they said that it has to do with "saving face". Saying "I don't know" is a disgraceful thing. So if someone does not know the answer, they make something up in…

I got this so often in every part of the United States that some decades ago I just stopped asking anyone for directions.

Strange. Never had it happen regularly in the US.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#284

Post by egorfine »

samiv wrote: post #264
bdsa wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because they find it uncomfortable to be pressed and the net result is a less productive relationship.

Exactly this. You just put them on the spot and they lose face and you're embarrassing them. Besides this interaction has already made it know they they don't know the answer so what's the benefit of forcing them to announce they they don't know something?

Understood.

But is it productive to cooperate with someone who will never admit lack of information?

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#285

Post by haspok »

samiv wrote: post #264
bdsa wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because they find it uncomfortable to be pressed and the net result is a less productive relationship.

Exactly this. You just put them on the spot and they lose face and you're embarrassing them. Besides this interaction has already made it know they they don't know the answer so what's the benefit of forcing them to announce they they don't know something?

Because the tail should not be wagging the dog.

If they cannot take a step towards another culture, why should I?

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#286

Post by ambicapter »

Retr0id wrote: post #208
jb1991 wrote: post #200

It sounds funny, but it's not. I once issued a bug to them that didn't have enough information about how to reproduce... and I was lambasted on Reddit and eventually just deleted my account there it was so terrifying. Some dev teams do not mess around. In fact I've shied off most social media since and no longer issue bug reports to any company, I was scarred deep over the treatment.

What was the bug?

Wouldn’t it be ironic if GP never answered this request for simple follow-up.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#287

Post by dbtablesorrows »

duckydude20 wrote: post #60
nchmy wrote: post #11

I've been helping a bit with OWASP documentation lately and there's been a surge of Indian students eagerly opening nonsensical issues and PRs and all of the communication and code is clearly 100% LLMs. They'll even talk back and forth with each other. It's a huge headache for the maintainers. I suggested following what Ghostty does where everything starts as discussions - only maintainers create issues, and PRs can…

i f8cking hate being born here. volume of low quality content, dsa/leetcode, etc. is so high, good people/content gets left out. networking, connections, nepotism so much high. getting job based on actual talent very rare. MNCs which are good outside are so much sh8t here; well capitalism doesn't give a f8ck anyways.

I think you'll get downvoted to oblivion because outsiders often don't realize the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

I will try to give some context.

To give an example, the CSE undergrad from an average Indian college would've done 500 - 1000 leetcode "problems" for practice. But have little to no idea on how to survive in a UNIX shell, or to troubleshoot an actual problem. Hell, half of them haven't written more than 1000 lines of code for single purpose.

People early in their career (which is most SWEs including yours truly) follow whatever "influencers" on youtube (the local term being bhaiyya-didis), who give them rough "roadmaps" to "crack DSA" or "get high paying remote job". The result is that average CS guy spends most of his time navigating this rat race than studying computer science stuff that matters for the job.

I see similar kind of competition getting created at senior levels too, in the terms of people grinding theory and blog posts on "system design" interviews. I am not old^H^H^H senior enough to comment on it, though.

But it was not all bleak. IIRC, We were producing quite few good OSS contributions through GSoC, LFX etc... until few years ago (not considering my own among good ones). There were talented 1% or so (I known a few very talented people in personally). Nowadays these "hustler" variety people have started "How to crack GSoC" roadmaps [sic] too, and the spamming quoted above see may be related to this. This sort of insane rat race is not good for talented people. It's not good for companies either. Recruitment is basically lottery at higher levels too; I have seen people use AI to shamelessly lie on their resumes and get hired etc... Some of these problems may be present in west but India's scale makes some of these problems difficult.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#288

Post by oefrha »

compounding_it wrote: post #29
nchmy wrote: post #11

I've been helping a bit with OWASP documentation lately and there's been a surge of Indian students eagerly opening nonsensical issues and PRs and all of the communication and code is clearly 100% LLMs. They'll even talk back and forth with each other. It's a huge headache for the maintainers. I suggested following what Ghostty does where everything starts as discussions - only maintainers create issues, and PRs can…

>Indian students Resume glorification and LinkedIn / GitHub profile attention do that. I am seeing a lot of people coming up with perceived knowledge that's just LLM echo chambers. Code they contribute comes straight out of LLMs. This is generally fine as long as they know what it does. But when you ask them to make some changes, some are as lost as ever. Torvalds was right, code maintenance is going to be a headache…

At this point I won’t consider any GitHub activity after ~2024 as hiring signals unless it’s very substantial work on high profile projects that clearly have high bars.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#289

Post by embedding-shape »

tomaskafka wrote: post #251
embedding-shape wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GitHub is under Microsoft’s AI division. Finally an explanation to why GitHub suddenly have way more bugs than usual for the last months (year even?), and seemingly whole UX flows that no longer work. I don't understand how it happens, do developers not at least load the pages their changes presumable affects? Or is the developers doing 100% vibe-coding for production code? Don't get me wrong, I use LLMs for develo…

I just listened to podcast from a higher echelon MSFT person, the internal orders basically are “focus on AI”, non-AI work gets deprioritized company wide.

But that by itself shouldn't mean that people suddenly don't even review and think what they're doing, right? Again, I too use LLMs for lots of work, yet I'm putting out better code than before, because I'm a software engineer, not a software slopper, is this not the common workflow?

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#290

Post by cactusplant7374 »

nchmy wrote: post #11

I've been helping a bit with OWASP documentation lately and there's been a surge of Indian students eagerly opening nonsensical issues and PRs and all of the communication and code is clearly 100% LLMs. They'll even talk back and forth with each other. It's a huge headache for the maintainers. I suggested following what Ghostty does where everything starts as discussions - only maintainers create issues, and PRs can…

What issue added GPU acceleration to Ghostty? It seems silly to add that to a terminal.
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