IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers • Hacker News Board

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#201

Post by batgaijin » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 1:23 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #84

notlisted wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, consider the source, really... it's one of those rightwing 'newspeak' organizations http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/background_briefing_... Secondly, though L1 visas do not have a prevailing wage, they DO look at the wage and if it's much lower the L1 visa is NOT granted. Also note that L1 visas are ONLY granted to people who have already worked with the company for several years and need to have been i…

The idea that immigration status is in any way linked to a company over the long term is clearly broken.

Do you really expect any Americans to care if they are already handcuffed with their healthcare?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#202

Post by aapl » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 1:27 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #199

chaostheory wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. I can confirm this. A few of my former H1B coworkers described how an unscrupulous manager would take advantage of them by dangling a sponsorship carrot (for a green card if I remember correctly). None of them were very happy about it and most felt trapped.

Cry me a river. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US. I worked in China and Korea for over six years and employer-specific visas are standard operating procedure. Don't like it, simply go home. "Slavery" is such hyperbole. Slavery in America pays a hell of a lot more than 'freedom' in New Delhi.

Hyperbole, true, but it's equally silly to say that things just fine because it's the same situation in China and Korea. Why not compare to Japan where work permits are not tied to an employer and if you lose your job you generally have at least 3 months to look for a new one? Or many European countries with similar or better terms?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#203

Post by rada » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 1:37 PM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #171

rada wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-United-States... Mobile developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mobile+Developer&l1=Unit... Senior Android developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Android+Developer&l1=Uni... Junior Java developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Junior+Java+Developer&l1... Node.js: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Node.js+&l1=United+State... No matter what you pl…

Wouldn't this affect everybody across the board? I think the senior salary flat-lining and junior salary growing is pretty much the law of nature in any occupation - there's a salary band for a given skill, and those who start at the bottom and are any good progress fast, those who start at the bottom and are no good drop out of the race and go do something else, and senior people pretty much know they're at the top…

Possibly yes in real dollars, definitely no in inflation dollars. At the very minimum, even with a flatline we should be seeing ~3% increases to compensate for inflation. Beyond the minimum, people still grow salary-wise in senior positions e.g. between $100k and $150k, especially if the whole dire shortage of talent thing were true.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#204

Post by shn » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 1:42 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #121

rada wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. As a current H1B holder, I have to disagree with that. I've just completed my second visa transfer, to my third job since moving to the US. I have had zero problems doing so- it requires some patience on the part of your future employer and while I've been lucky with past employers and not had to worry, you can also file the transfer without telling your curre…

Unless you are a permanent resident hopeful what you say is correct. For a lengthy period of green card process does not allow portability of the GC application. I can hardly imagine anyone who has H1B but not has a GC application in the process or about to make that application. At that point visa and the GC application becomes a golden handcuff. If shit hit the fan you are politely reminded of this. It did for me when I was caught in the middle of a power struggle in the company and asked of my loyalty. Employers are not stupid to remind you this (productivity tanks), generally it goes very silent, but if they have to they will remind you, don't worry about that eventuality.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#205

Post by btilly » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 1:56 PM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #192

btilly wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you may or may not be aware, I'm personally aware of you and value your opinion significantly more than an average HN commenter. Therefore let me just say that one of the reasons that I would suggest the bond from the initial company is to cover the potential government obligation in the case of a significant period of unemployment. Does this not seem to be an important difference? If not, then it would seem that…

After losing the job, H1-B holder is supposed to find a new job or go home within the grace period of 90 days. There's no "significant period of unemployment". Where are you getting your facts from?

If you re-read that, the possibility of a significant period of employment is part of my suggestion, and is supposed to be a difference from the current status quo. Therefore I'm aware that this is not how things currently work.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#206

Post by steverb » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 2:02 PM UTC

arkem wrote: post #182

If you're wondering if H-1b (and E-3) workers are paid less than American workers you can find out for yourself. The US Government publishes the employer, location, title, and salary of every H-1b application (whether accepted or declined). It's also a good source of information about how much large tech companies are paying for new hires this year. http://www.flcdatacenter.com/ (also available from data.gov)

Definitely paid much less in my area then. By about half.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#207

Post by SudarshanP » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 2:59 PM UTC

patmcguire wrote: post #79

yummyfajitas wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), Could you explain this in more detail?

It's like the senior discount on a grander scale. Your typical old person on a fixed income can pay less than someone still working, so you split the market into two segments and do a pricing strategy that gives maximum profit in both - you keep the high margin on the young but increase the quantity the old can afford more than the price cut. You keep people from moving between the segmented markets by setting an age…

If the american's could get medicines, books, degrees at much lower prices, maybe medical research would not be so costly in the first place... The cost of medical research is primarily composed of paying doctors, nurses, lawyers, politicians, clerks, programmers etc artificially inflated salaries so that they can afford education and healthcare. Maybe these corporations will drop the price of healthcare and education to compensate for lower incomes as more people become unemployed by competing with other countries.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#208

Post by eru » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 3:03 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #195

justincormack wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did not fall significantly at all (although in some countries wages stagnated much like in the US). Self-employed wages (plumbers being a common example) may have fallen, but salaried rates did not seem to in aggregate. I hired many people from Poland, as they were very good and well qualified, but did not pay them less. Offshoring still pays less, so that is common too, but then the cost of living is still less…

Thanks, Justin! Yes, e.g. German wages haven fallen due to the EU expansion. If at all, the German labour market is stronger than before. (But there are other confounding factors, like broader labour market reforms that provided some much needed flexibility. Also Germany did not really have a minimum wage, and now they introduced something like it. (I'm not too current on that. Wikipedia probably knows more.)) I'm al…

Correction:

"German wages have __not__ fallen due to the EU expansion."

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#209

Post by grecy » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 4:11 PM UTC

Evbn wrote: post #173

grecy wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If supply is dwindling then raising wages can work for individual companies, but not I think for the industry as a whole. It's interesting you look at this from the perspective of benefiting the companies. My discussion was about the lack of benefit to the employees and people in the country in general. > supply is not going to jump like the growing industry needs it to. Industry only needs supply to jump fast so t…

...and so people born on other pieces of dirt can have higher standard of living...

Absolutely that's a consequence.

Have you spent any time in developing and undeveloped countries? Do you have any idea what would happen to your life if we averaged out the standard of living across all countries?

After living in Ecuador, Bolivia, Peru, etc for years, I honestly believe the majority of people in the developed world would die if they were forced to live like that.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#210

Post by guyzero » Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 5:05 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #89

blinkingled wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B VISA has a limit of 6 years. H1-Bs get no social security benefits even though they pay social security taxes just like anyone else. Their children do not educate for free - they pay local, federal and city taxes just like anyone else. They aren't allowed to vote. You are thinking immigrants not H1-Bs. Due to severe shortage of immigrant VISAs and due to MNCs not filing Green Cards for most H1-Bs - there is a sm…

I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B. But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's educatio…

I'm an H1-B holder who pays $10K annually in property taxes. Seriously, you're just making stuff up here. Everyone pays property taxes, either directly for homeowners or indirectly through rent. H1-B holders pay income taxes just like everyone else which is what pays for things like emergency rooms. H1-B holder also have jobs (by definition) and so are nearly guaranteed to have health insurance unlike most Americans.

If your point isn't that H1-B holders don't pay their way in society (because they do) then why mention all the points about how they're not paying their way?