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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#191

Post by justincormack »

jimbokun wrote: post #142
eru wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it will put every local person out of a job, or force them to work for a wage lower than they were willing to accept in the first place, thus driving down minimum wage. That's a great way to turn your country into a developing one. I can't tell if you're trolling or not, either. I hope, you know, wages are high in the rich world because of high productivity (in sectors that produce tradeable goods)? Not because…

"I hope, you know, wages are high in the rich world because of high productivity" I'm pretty sure productivity has been rising rapidly over the last decade in the U.S., with no increase in wages. "Their inhabitants now have the right to work everywhere in the EU. Did wages in the rest of the rich parts of the EU fall down to Polish levels? No." What levels did they fall to (I honestly don't know)?

They did not fall significantly at all (although in some countries wages stagnated much like in the US). Self-employed wages (plumbers being a common example) may have fallen, but salaried rates did not seem to in aggregate. I hired many people from Poland, as they were very good and well qualified, but did not pay them less. Offshoring still pays less, so that is common too, but then the cost of living is still less in those countries.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#192

Post by prostoalex »

btilly wrote: post #188
neilk wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been through an H1-B transfer myself, the lawyers didn't seem to think it was a big deal. From application to acceptance I don't think it was even a week. I think if your idea was implemented there would be little change in H1-B mobility. Fact is, a foreign worker just has fewer options in the host country for lots of reasons and paperwork is the least of it. The foreign worker probably has no professional reput…

As you may or may not be aware, I'm personally aware of you and value your opinion significantly more than an average HN commenter. Therefore let me just say that one of the reasons that I would suggest the bond from the initial company is to cover the potential government obligation in the case of a significant period of unemployment. Does this not seem to be an important difference? If not, then it would seem that…

After losing the job, H1-B holder is supposed to find a new job or go home within the grace period of 90 days. There's no "significant period of unemployment". Where are you getting your facts from?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#193

Post by realrocker »

Evbn wrote: post #180
realrocker wrote: post #71

This sort of thing is also harmful for native IT development for an outsourcing destination such as India. Since the motive of work channeled to India is simply cheaper costs, good software engineers have a limited run. One of the direct fallout is time-based promotions instead of merit-based. Some salient points: a) Average entry salary(0 years exp.) for an IT worker is about $6k. After applying PPP(purchasing power…

GDP?

gross domestic product.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#194

Post by fijal »

I love how websites like this have a headline on the top saying "Low immigration". So, leaving the contents of the article completely aside, it's clear they'll only present evidence that supports their worldview and their worldview will not be influenced by any data whatsoever. That does not make it correct or incorrect, but the approach is flawed.

From my very personal experience, large companies may save some money, but in the first place, they're willing to deal with the burden of H1Bs. Small companies I chatted with were mostly (but not always) "OMFG, H1B, no, we don't have that much time and money" irrelevant to the experience.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#195

Post by eru »

justincormack wrote: post #191
jimbokun wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I hope, you know, wages are high in the rich world because of high productivity" I'm pretty sure productivity has been rising rapidly over the last decade in the U.S., with no increase in wages. "Their inhabitants now have the right to work everywhere in the EU. Did wages in the rest of the rich parts of the EU fall down to Polish levels? No." What levels did they fall to (I honestly don't know)?

They did not fall significantly at all (although in some countries wages stagnated much like in the US). Self-employed wages (plumbers being a common example) may have fallen, but salaried rates did not seem to in aggregate. I hired many people from Poland, as they were very good and well qualified, but did not pay them less. Offshoring still pays less, so that is common too, but then the cost of living is still less…

Thanks, Justin! Yes, e.g. German wages haven fallen due to the EU expansion. If at all, the German labour market is stronger than before. (But there are other confounding factors, like broader labour market reforms that provided some much needed flexibility. Also Germany did not really have a minimum wage, and now they introduced something like it. (I'm not too current on that. Wikipedia probably knows more.))

I'm also working with lots of Polish people. (And I won't even escape them in Singapore.)

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#196

Post by usaar333 »

Evbn wrote: post #176
patmcguire wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like the senior discount on a grander scale. Your typical old person on a fixed income can pay less than someone still working, so you split the market into two segments and do a pricing strategy that gives maximum profit in both - you keep the high margin on the young but increase the quantity the old can afford more than the price cut. You keep people from moving between the segmented markets by setting an age…

Nowhere does your long post explain anything about "artificial inflation", only market pricing.

The artificial inflation comes from it being illegal to import say medicine across borders.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#197

Post by eru »

grecy wrote: post #115
eru wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 1: Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't, the Fed can just run slightly looser monetary policy. About 2: The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not.... > Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't That may be the most superfluous statement I've ever read. > The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer. And it will put every local person out of a job, o…

>> Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't

> That may be the most superfluous statement I've ever read.

To elaborate: Either the money comes back into the US, then it doesn't matter for aggregate demand that it was sent out as remittance first. Or, if the money doesn't come back, then the Fed can just react by printing more money. (And the American public profits by getting some labour just for some pieces of paper---or more accurately, for some entries in a database.)

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#199

Post by briandear »

chaostheory wrote: post #78
rada wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

> 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. I can confirm this. A few of my former H1B coworkers described how an unscrupulous manager would take advantage of them by dangling a sponsorship carrot (for a green card if I remember correctly). None of them were very happy about it and most felt trapped.

Cry me a river. No one is forcing anyone to come to the US. I worked in China and Korea for over six years and employer-specific visas are standard operating procedure. Don't like it, simply go home. "Slavery" is such hyperbole. Slavery in America pays a hell of a lot more than 'freedom' in New Delhi.
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