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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#151

Post by geebee »

akiselev wrote: post #150
geebee wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"America is built on the backs of immigrants and having maximum quotas for the immigration of the highest skilled ones does not seem like artificially increasing the supply." I mean artificially increasing the supply relative to other professions . If we "staple a green card to every STEM degree" but not other degrees, we will increase the supply of STEM workers relative to lawyers, MBAs, finance majors, and so forth…

Just as a side note: the green card is by no means stapled. It's an immensely difficult upward battle, with an emotional and financial expense the likes of which most domestic workers never go through. The H1-B is not selective for a specific set of professions per se, it's selective for professions requiring expertise and at least a bachelors degree. Official USCIS requirements: "-Bachelor’s or higher degree or its…

I was referring to proposals to "staple a green card" to STEM degrees (currently in the Senate), not the current reality which I will agree is very daunting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/opinion/visas-for-scientis...

In spite of my misgivings about what I think is a contrived shortage, I would support this legislation, mainly because I think it is extremely destructive to kick out highly educated people who have studied at US universities, and I'd much rather see green cards than visas that I think are indentured in nature. It does frustrate me, though, to see this happening only in science and engineering. Why STEM? Why not law, or medicine, or even trades like plumbing? I just paid $100 an hour for a plumber (and want to be sure I'm not perceived as complaining, plumbers are skilled workers who deserve good compensation).

I think it failed more because of political bickering than anything else.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#152

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #144
akiselev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is almost exactly the same across our entire immigration system, the H1-B Visa is no exception. Only in rare cases do immigrants not pay the same taxes (through bidirectional tax treaties) and most of them don't receive the same benefits, if any.

The point isn't whether immigrants pay the same taxes. The point is that society makes certain commitments to everyone who lives in the US, and everyone who lives in the US makes certain reciprocal commitments to the society. A society legitimately controls immigration into the country by virtue of those reciprocal commitments. At a most fundamental level, a nation is a group of people who commit to protect each othe…

[deleted]

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#153

Post by akiselev »

rayiner wrote: post #144
akiselev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is almost exactly the same across our entire immigration system, the H1-B Visa is no exception. Only in rare cases do immigrants not pay the same taxes (through bidirectional tax treaties) and most of them don't receive the same benefits, if any.

The point isn't whether immigrants pay the same taxes. The point is that society makes certain commitments to everyone who lives in the US, and everyone who lives in the US makes certain reciprocal commitments to the society. A society legitimately controls immigration into the country by virtue of those reciprocal commitments. At a most fundamental level, a nation is a group of people who commit to protect each othe…

"H1-B is a big step towards green card status for many people, and green card holders are entitled to all of these things."

No that is the point. With this statement you are justifying the fact that Visa holders don't receive the same commitments as PRs and citizens because they may or may not receive a GC in the future. Many H1-Bs have to leave the US before they even get a chance to get a GC (all the while paying their taxes and not receiving much of the benefits).

This makes them second class citizens.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#154

Post by akiselev »

rayiner wrote: post #133
blinkingled wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep referring to obligations but I see no obligations society or community has to incur cost or resources for admitting a H1-B. If there were publicly funded hospitals that cared for H1-Bs, if there were publicly funded accommodations for H1-B offered for free or subsidized costs, if the government charged you in taxes for fulfilling their obligations towards the H1B - then what you are saying would be right. No…

First, I'm talking about immigration generally, not just H1-B. Second, you seem to be conflating the term "obligation" with "burden." I'm not saying that H1-B's are somehow particularly a drain on public resources or they benefit from common public expenditures in some special way that citizens don't. That's not what "obligation" means. You point out that you "paid for everything just like every other legal resident/…

But the society doesn't extend the same obligations or benefits. Non permanent residents and citizens are treated as second class citizens both in their financial prospects (paying the same taxes, not receiving the same benefits in SS, Medicare/aid, unemployment benefits, and especially federal financial aid among many others). Many immigrants never receive these benefits because they are forced out before they are eligible to realize them.

The penalties for any breach of the obligations also happen to be harder on many immigrants. For many, even those who are permanent residents, breaking a law that would result in probation or even a misdemeanor can result in deportation. For many, this is worse than prison. (For example, if deported I would be forced into the corrupt military of an anti-American country where 300+ people die annually from hazing alone and where I am barely fluent in the language).

The US totally has a right to control it's own borders but don't try to justify it. The immigration system of the US is at best broken, at worst inhumane.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#155

Post by randomdata »

EricDeb wrote: post #76

As a recent STEM graduate (Masters in CS), what irks me is the relentless focus on job experience. I don't even get interviews for jobs requiring a high school/GED equivalence + 3 years of experience. There seems to be little faith in our STEM programs among tech recruiters/companies.

I don't think it is lack of faith, just the fact that college was never meant to be vocational training in the first place. While it is an amazing achievement for you, I'm sure, it doesn't mean much to the rest of us.

Additionally, it is so easy to gain experience in this industry, just take a month or two to publish your own application and watch the job offers start rolling in, I would imagine these companies consider not having any a bit of red flag. Maybe you can put some of the code you wrote while in school up on GitHub or something to demonstrate that you actually really do have experience? (it doesn't necessarily had to have been for-profit to still count as experience)

Hopefully this doesn't come off sounding harsh, just trying to provide some perspective.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#156

Post by tsotha »

rayiner wrote: post #64
nullc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen many kinds of H1B employment. People with excellent skills and experience being paid competitive wages, people with reasonable skills being exploited at low wages at the clear expense of locals, and people who were hardly qualified to warm a seat being pulled in to pad up some contract as cheaply as possible. As usually when you paint with broad strokes you cover some dissimilar surfaces. But at the core th…

A country is a community. Multinational companies don't want people to believe that, but it's true. A community is entitled to control its membership. An H-1B is not just a contract between employer and employee. It is a contract between a foreigner and a community. We the community agree to make that person one of us. To educate his or her children at the public expense. To allow him or her to affect our elections.…

>We the community agree to make that person one of us... To allow him or her to affect our elections.

No, this is wrong. A person on an H1-B visa is not one of us. They do not have the right to reside in the US if they lose their job, and the definitely don't have the right to vote.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#157

Post by scdoshi »

Doesn't anyone else feel that the solution should be enforcing equal pay and removing loopholes that allow the cost difference to exist rather than reducing or controlling H1-B visas?

That would automatically make it (or at least bring it closer to) a merit based system rather than a cost benefit.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#159

Post by cpeterso »

randomdata wrote: post #155
EricDeb wrote: post #76

As a recent STEM graduate (Masters in CS), what irks me is the relentless focus on job experience. I don't even get interviews for jobs requiring a high school/GED equivalence + 3 years of experience. There seems to be little faith in our STEM programs among tech recruiters/companies.

I don't think it is lack of faith, just the fact that college was never meant to be vocational training in the first place. While it is an amazing achievement for you, I'm sure, it doesn't mean much to the rest of us. Additionally, it is so easy to gain experience in this industry, just take a month or two to publish your own application and watch the job offers start rolling in, I would imagine these companies consi…

Contributing to open source projects, particularly well-known ones with strong communities, is another way to get resume experience and network with people.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#160

Post by cpeterso »

kevinprince wrote: post #138

US immigration is completely broken. I went to college and graduated in the US on a J1 visa, I paid my fees and when I worked I paid my federal, state taxes + my social security contributions. After graduation I left the US as obviously it makes sense to take my money, teach me skills and then tell me to leave? Why are graduates not being allowed to stay ? I want to move to the US, pay taxes and generally be a good c…

> I went to college and graduated in the US on a J1 visa, I paid my fees and when I worked I paid my federal, state taxes + my social security contributions. After graduation I left the US as obviously it makes sense to take my money, teach me skills and then tell me to leave?

I think the US should encourage smart people stay in the country by fast-tracking the citizenship process for graduates with J1 visas. H1Bs might be good for short-term corporate profits, but increasing the number of smart people who have roots in the US is good for the country's long-term health. Reverse brain drain with more brains. :)

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