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You keep using that word "meritocracy"

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Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#71

Terribly, terribly sorry for the meta-comment, but I have to say, it's been thrilling lately to watch the intersection of two bubbles that are usually totally isolated — the "social justice" community and the "hacker" community — and to see the naivetes of both groups exposed, especially because both groups are composed of people who usually take themselves and their own intelligence very seriously. I work as a progr…

I am glad you made this post, because recently I've been having similar thoughts. I don't know if it's just because I visit sites that occupy a singular cluster in webpage-space [1], but it seems like the evidence of increased conflict between the social justice community and the hacker community is popping up everywhere. Is this because the social justice community has finally reached critical mass on the web (a traditional hacker domain) and is speaking up, or did something in one of the communities recently change to trigger this? And is this collision / conflict something that we'll see more of in the future, or will the fervor on each side die down?

Either way, I think the hacker community's long term response will be really interesting. When looking for historical examples, I can really only see one clear path -- the path taken by industries whose employees already consider themselves privileged, namely those in finance and banking. They've had ongoing conflicts with the social justice community for a while now, and we've seen their response. Will the hacker community respond similarly? Hackers seem to value non-conformity and despise credentialism, so I doubt it.

So, I think the long term path of the hacker community will probably be unique. Suppose the hackers recognize that they might be privileged in some ways (e.g. high IQ). Will we see a restored sense of noblesse oblige? I doubt the social justice community let that stand. Maybe the hackers will undergo a cultural transform that satisfies them? Though I'd like to believe this is possible, no examples come to mind that give me any confidence.

[1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/nl/the_cluster_structure_of_thingspa...

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#72
Once again we see members of the social justice community promoting "privilege" as the metric for which all achievements should be judged. Developed an amazing search technology? "Well, they're two straight white males... big deal". Revolutionized the mobile devices industry? "He's a straight white male of course it's easy for him". Created the largest social network on Earth? Pfff...all he had to do was show up.

The fundamental flaw with privilege theory is that there is no way of discerning where someones supposed privilege ends and where their actual achievements and talent begin. Unless you're gong to simple say "anyone could of done that and the only reason you were able to was because you're a white male" or a "dude" or "boy" as this author seems to be fond of calling men (misandrist much?). In other words we're all equally talented, smart, motivated and lucky and the only differentiator is race, class and gender. Which I think most would agree is absurd.

One question I have though is what would be the ideal world for the OP? A system where everyone's race, class, gender and privilege are considered when making hiring decisions and then adjusting applicants qualifications accordingly? Is that really the world we want to live in?

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#73
> A meritocracy is a system for centralizing authority in the hands of those who already have it, and ensuring that authority is only distributed to others like them or those who aren’t but are willing to play by their rules.

So the whole argument seems to be centered around this idea, but it seems horribly flawed.

Let's assume for the moment that this theory is true. There really is an implicit homogeneous conspiracy that's in charge of distributing "merit", and they only give it to people who are "like" the existing members. Even if that's true, why in the world would you assume that this conspiracy is defining similarity by skin color or sex?

It's very easy for somebody whose self-identity is defined by a certain characteristic to assume that others see the world the same way. That since I define myself primarily by being an X and secondarily by being a Y, others are treating me primarily as a member of groups X and Y. Which is clearly absurd since there are so many ways to categorize people, and since people are perfectly capable of building an identity around each of them. It could well be religion, sexual orientation, nationality, language, politics, age, occupation, school, sports team, a hobby, etc. And many of these categories have fractal complexity.

AFAIK, my sense of identity isn't really tied up in race or gender. So why would I as an extremely prejudiced gatekeeper of meritocracy make decisions based on whether somebody is male of female, rather than whether they're a Java programmer (eew) or a CL hacker (yay!).

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your analysis. However I've only ever sat in on a few programmer interviews, and was lucky enough to get only the few that had already made it through several screens and were quite sharp. However, if so many people can't do FizzBuzz, that's baffling. If they can't do that, what can they do? I mean that literally. Do they just have knowledge of certain specific frameworks or something? Can anyone shed li…

One issue I've had is that if a question is too easy, I start out thinking "this must be a trick question..." and then tie myself up in knots trying to find the (non-existant) catch... Of course in an interview, one should presumably just say "hey this seems too easy, is this a trick question?" but ...

That reminds me of when I was first learning to program. I wondered for an embarrasingly long time what the hell 'foo' meant. I knew it must be something really important as it was absolutely everywhere.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#75
post #43
post #13

You can have a meritocracy, and still have an unfair demographic skew. Given a black box in which the inputs are infants and the outputs are people applying for software jobs, if the black-box is unfair, then even if you have a perfect evaluation function in your interviewing process, you will be skewed to the input of the black box. All that being said, of course we have an imperfect evaluation function. And it is a…

I propose that it is easier to give unfair advantages to minorities at the college level than it is to fix the unfair disadvantages before that level. This is why I support affirmative action. This is interesting, because it really does get down to the core of the argument: how do we improve the academic success of minorities? Unfortunately, letting someone who can't do calculus into, say, Stanford, is not going to f…

The question isn't if the dropout rate of minorities is higher, the question is, do more minorities graduate than if there wasn't AA? If so, then AA is having some positive effect.

I'm all for fixing problems at the local level, but the problems are huge. On a micro level, within school districts there are issues of gerrymandering and even absent gerrymandering there is a terrible positive feedback loop where properties within the boundaries of good schools increase in value, putting them out-of-reach of lower income families.

Also, consider the range of things the child of an engineer is exposed to regularly by the age of 7 to the range of things the child of someone working 60 hours a week in a non-skilled service industry job.

The obviously wrong on so many levels solution would be to shuffle all children to random parents in. That would give you true equality of opportunity. Things like big brother/sister and other mentorship programs fix this in a more sane manner, and I can recommend those to anyone on HN who wants to make a difference.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#76
post #25

The inflammatory and rambly tone will likely cause a lot of people to miss what I think is actually a point worth considering: > A meritocracy is a system for centralizing authority in the hands of those who already have it, and ensuring that authority is only distributed to others like them or those who aren’t but are willing to play by their rules. It's analogous to IQ tests having cultural biases, but people's cla…

> A meritocracy is a system for centralizing authority in the hands of those who already have it, and ensuring that authority is only distributed to others like them or those who aren’t but are willing to play by their rules. If we take this as a definition for 'meritocracy', what do we call situations where there is an objective test of skill that everyone is equally prepared to meet, but not everyone is equally abl…

My reading of that is that the author would reject both of those. My personal thoughts (as you can probably tell from my other comments on this thread) are that we are much closer to having an objective test than equal preparation.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#77
Somebody decides how to measure merit and certifies who has it. Then you have regulatory capture[1].

That's why you have all the white guys deciding who will be doctors, business executives, lawyers, engineers, etc. And people like people they can relate to, no individual maliciousness or racism needed. It's inherent in the system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#78
post #13

You can have a meritocracy, and still have an unfair demographic skew. Given a black box in which the inputs are infants and the outputs are people applying for software jobs, if the black-box is unfair, then even if you have a perfect evaluation function in your interviewing process, you will be skewed to the input of the black box. All that being said, of course we have an imperfect evaluation function. And it is a…

> If you shift the black box back a bit and you have inputs being babies and outputs being high-school graduates, you will see a huge skew still, and this is part of the reason for affirmative action at the HS level.

I don't know how it is in the US, but in Sweden the skew in education is the other way - recently girls do better in school than boys. It hasn't changed the men/women ratio in computer science though (it has in fields such as law and medicine though)

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#79
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I propose that it is easier to give unfair advantages to minorities at the college level than it is to fix the unfair disadvantages before that level. This is why I support affirmative action. This is interesting, because it really does get down to the core of the argument: how do we improve the academic success of minorities? Unfortunately, letting someone who can't do calculus into, say, Stanford, is not going to f…

The problem sometimes just gets pushed back in time by funneling unprepared high school kids into AP Calc classes. They don't have the algebra for it. I've seen this first-hand and while there are sometimes one or two kids for whom it is a godsend (and it's possible the benefit to them alone justifies having the rest of their classmates in an inappropriate class), the rest of tend to flounder. AP! AP! AP! the cry goe…

Then we go back and make sure they get adequate algebra education. We have to trace the problem back and fix it before the trajectory becomes irreparably set in stone.

Math takes time and lots of practice to learn. Trying to cram it all in at the college level via AA is just Not Going To Work.

As a side note, I really wish we'd had AP Calc at my high school. We only had two english APs, alas. (got 5s on 'em, though)

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#80
post #23

The article seems full of hatred against "white men". A group of people, for some reason, has found it worth its time to do some activity. This group then trains more, invest more time, and compounding interests makes them better. Other groups see their success and feel like they don't belong. It's human - nothing mean in it. Why is Christophe Lemaitre one of the only decent white sprinters? Because. Why are boys dro…

"Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that."

All of those social dynamics are explainable. Why are sprinters seldom White? Because fast people in Western cultures participate in the more-lucrative and high-status team sports instead. Why are boys dropping out? Well, African-American boys are punished more harshly for the same behavior, more likely to be diagnosed as learning-disabled and tracked out of regular classrooms, less likely to have their father at home due in large part to racist enforcement and prison terms. White boys aren't dropping out: they are under-performing because they don't have to work as hard to succeed as girls. Why are there mostly white men in the IT industry? I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Computer-Boys-Take-Over/dp/0262050... It answers your question and it has nothing to do with who the best programmers are.

If you can't explain something, maybe you should do more research.

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