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You keep using that word "meritocracy"

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Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#41
Terribly, terribly sorry for the meta-comment, but I have to say, it's been thrilling lately to watch the intersection of two bubbles that are usually totally isolated — the "social justice" community and the "hacker" community — and to see the naivetes of both groups exposed, especially because both groups are composed of people who usually take themselves and their own intelligence very seriously.

I work as a programmer, but my social circle is mostly semi-luddite radicals and hippies. Somebody got chocolate in my peanut butter.

Why this is happening is intensely interesting to me. Programmers have emerged as a highly visible priveleged social group, whose actions have huge and often unexamined social consequences. One example is the rising cost of living in San Francisco.

For a group that isn't used to considering itself "priveleged" in the usual sense, it must be disorienting to suddenly be scrutinized in this way. I wonder what the response from "hackers" will look like over the long term.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#42
post #21

I'm not sure why this person decided to redefine the essence of meritocracy to mean the biased notion of evaluated merit that keeps the powerful in power. This whole rant falls apart if you assume an honest desire to promote based on merit, which is often what people mean when they claim to be meritocratic. Granted they don't execute it properly, and aren't fully honest when they say that they value it, but lets get…

> I'm not sure why this person decided to redefine the essence of meritocracy

Because the very word "meritocracy" was invented to describe an Orwellian society dystopia were "merit" was the only metric for value. He just use the original definition.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#43
post #13

You can have a meritocracy, and still have an unfair demographic skew. Given a black box in which the inputs are infants and the outputs are people applying for software jobs, if the black-box is unfair, then even if you have a perfect evaluation function in your interviewing process, you will be skewed to the input of the black box. All that being said, of course we have an imperfect evaluation function. And it is a…

I propose that it is easier to give unfair advantages to minorities at the college level than it is to fix the unfair disadvantages before that level. This is why I support affirmative action.

This is interesting, because it really does get down to the core of the argument: how do we improve the academic success of minorities?

Unfortunately, letting someone who can't do calculus into, say, Stanford, is not going to fix the fact that they will be WAY behind their peers. The psychological damage from this alone is tremendous. In fact, I believe there are some interesting studies done on this "mismatch" phenomenon, since racial minorities actually have a higher interest level in STEM careers, but are put at a disadvantage and become less likely to graduate as one due to being AA-ed into a student body where their capabilities are WAY below the mean of their classmates. This leads to an extremely high dropout rate which could have been avoided if they'd gone to a school that better suited their abilities. Instead, thanks to AA, the dropout rate for minorities in STEM departments is ridiculously high, and talented people who maybe just needed a less intense curriculum to adjust to instead end up becoming history or gender or racial studies majors or whatever major you can 4.0 in just for having a pulse.

Personally, whether it's harder or easier to do it at the pre-college level, I think it far wiser to leave the college admissions race-blind (to prevent discrimination) and focus on fixing the broken infrastructure that is failing our socioeconomically disadvantaged students.

That kid going to Stanford will do much better if he has AP calculus available at his high school, instead of just getting AA-ed in with an inferior skillset (which may or may not be their fault). We want people to be able to succeed, not set them up for failure. As a bonus, most people are fine with the idea of giving others an equal shot, but not so fine with the idea of race based discrimination. AA makes other groups resentful and suspicious of the AA-ed party, but helping people have equal access to preparation for college? Who's going to argue against that?

The best way to end discriminating on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#44
post #21

I'm not sure why this person decided to redefine the essence of meritocracy to mean the biased notion of evaluated merit that keeps the powerful in power. This whole rant falls apart if you assume an honest desire to promote based on merit, which is often what people mean when they claim to be meritocratic. Granted they don't execute it properly, and aren't fully honest when they say that they value it, but lets get…

The question is, who and what defines merit in a meritocracy? The article claims that those already in power do and thus it is they that control who gets to move up the ladder.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#45
The biggest point in this stands out as follows: The gatekeepers of "Merit" rely on for selection. They do this precisely because they do not know actual merit. Cue: Irony. Applications to top-tier selective Universities, for example, are read for ~20 minutes. The reason they do not know actual merit, is a fundamental issue: Bounded Rationality.

The costs (in time, money, and brain damage) associated with "factual" merit testing would be rediculous/uneconomic. We can verify this somewhat orthogonally, by looking at a couple different similar selection processees. eg. Job interviews. Same problem, same solution. 20 min resume screens. Next, we can compare a resource-unconstrained organization: How does it recruit top 1-5%'er? (special forces, test-pilots, and astronauts, etc): long, exhaustive, actual-failure-mode testing. No 20 minute skims.

If every job or educational credential was allocated in this manner (and you'd have to assume access to the test and test prep), it would be a more interesting test of "Merit". As a second best, it would be interesting if schools actually failed out their weakest students (ie, proving that only the best had a credential). But that is not how the world works. Merit is, rather, a politically correct (and practically expedient) heuristic for preferential treatment. And that is the main point of this post, I believe.

The fair debate, of course, is on the resolution and applicability of filters under various contexts. And if they are inefficient, are they remdiably so?. &tc.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#46
post #39

The inflammatory and rambly tone will likely cause a lot of people to miss what I think is actually a point worth considering: > A meritocracy is a system for centralizing authority in the hands of those who already have it, and ensuring that authority is only distributed to others like them or those who aren’t but are willing to play by their rules. It's analogous to IQ tests having cultural biases, but people's cla…

>A meritocracy is a system for centralizing authority in the hands of those who already have it, and ensuring that authority is only distributed to others like them or those who aren’t but are willing to play by their rules. This is quite an unusual definition. I always thought that a meritocracy was about giving the people best able to do a job the greatest rewards. The article seems to be assuming that all meritocr…

Quoth Wikipedia:

the term [was] originally coined by Michael Young in 1958, who critically defined it as a system where "merit is equated with intelligence-plus-effort, its possessors are identified at an early age and selected for appropriate intensive education, and there is an obsession with quantification, test-scoring, and qualifications."

Essentially, the predictions become reality through confirmation bias, rather than any real measure of ability. This seems relevant to every existing 'meritocracy', such as academic tenure.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#47
post #30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point, which is not calling you racist, but opening your eyes to the fact that much of what you have achieved (and I don't mean you specifically, but the class of people the article adresses) is not a direct result of your effort but largely due to privilege. Thus, as a person of privilege you should use whatever political power you have - and you have quite a lot of it - to help rectify th…

Merit does not require effort. I haven't heard anyone claiming that their ability to program is a measure of their worth as a human being. It is, however, a measure of one's usefulness to a development team.

Ok, but isn't it in the interest of all software employers to use their political power to create more capable developers? This is simple economics; I'm not even touching ethics or justice here. And isn't it the immediate interest of current developers to maintain their value by blocking others from entering this profession? Sometimes we adhere to hidden interests without even realizing. Let us first open our eyes to how society works and how we may, inadvertantly, keep others down.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#48
post #37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

getting a sweet internship at some cutting edge technology Author is arguing/implying that overcoming this "gate" was the source of [the example's] later (developed, proven,etc) skill. It might not be a perfect argument, but its there IMHO. I think if you believe it's not a good argument/ point, its best to attack it directly. That is all.

I don't think she's saying that. Do white males without programming skills get programming internships at a higher rate? Are there even a significant number of people who take that path? Hiring is not the problem. Getting underrepresented folks to choose computer science in the first place is.

Now I think you are attacking the point directly. I can't speak for the author but it seems to me that the person does believe this. viz "it’s a pretty fucking easy job..." etc [1]

___________

[1] The whole context is as follows:

If there’s one thing I’ve learned after thirty-three years of being alive, it’s that if you see middle-class white boys flocking in droves to a particular career path, it’s a pretty fucking easy job and you should try and get yourself one like that.

I guess that’s a little mean. Sorry, middle-class white boys. I’m not calling you dumb. I’m calling you soft.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#49
post #39

The inflammatory and rambly tone will likely cause a lot of people to miss what I think is actually a point worth considering: > A meritocracy is a system for centralizing authority in the hands of those who already have it, and ensuring that authority is only distributed to others like them or those who aren’t but are willing to play by their rules. It's analogous to IQ tests having cultural biases, but people's cla…

>A meritocracy is a system for centralizing authority in the hands of those who already have it, and ensuring that authority is only distributed to others like them or those who aren’t but are willing to play by their rules. This is quite an unusual definition. I always thought that a meritocracy was about giving the people best able to do a job the greatest rewards. The article seems to be assuming that all meritocr…

You're dancing around the point of the article, which is that what most people here consider a programming/technical meritocracy is a corrupt meritocracy. Most people who can program, can do so because of their background, not because of some innate quality.

Re: You keep using that word "meritocracy"

#50

If the PC police could do Fermi problems, they wouldn't be polluting my news feed with inane conspiracy theories. http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/math.htm

Honestly, there are so many studies with conflicting results that I feel like it's hard to tell to what extent there may or may not be a sex based difference in math aptitude. However, I feel like we can't throw out the possibility of it having an effect just because it's politically incorrect. It's bad science to assume you know the results before even doing the experiment.

Sex based differences (and/or similarities) are really fascinating to me. I wish they weren't so politicized.

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