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Let's call a murder a murder

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Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#161

Post by luke5441 »

tda wrote: post #149

The sharpest (and scariest) analysis I've encountered is this: the administration governs as though no government will ever follow. The blanket pardons for January 6th insurrectionists, the revocation of Secret Service protection for political enemies—these are not the actions of someone who expects to face accountability from a future administration. And that's precisely the point. Trump is not governing recklessly;…

My baseline (as an outside observer) is still that they are too stupid and uncoordinated to do a facist take-over. But that a significant possibility even exists that there will be a facist take-over is awful.

(The main ingredient for a facist take-over is control over the military and media and he is not creating many loyalists in either)

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#162

Post by tombert »

duxup wrote: post #60
techblueberry wrote: post #4

Just found: "The agent who shot a woman in Minneapolis on Wednesday was pulled about 100 yards by a car last year while firing a stun gun at the driver." So, this is a trend.

Considering the behavior of ICE, it seems like they hired some folks just desperate to find legal cover to shoot someone. There are numerous videos of them casually drawing their weapons on protesters. https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Raids/comments/1q7u4kz/ice_agen ... https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1q7y43s/cbp_poin ...

I feel like this is a problem that is going to be inherent to any position of power that allows people to use weapons; you very heavily selection-bias towards people want power and to use weapons, especially if the people who do abuse their position of violence are consistently allowed to do it with impunity.

Not saying that every person in law enforcement is bad, obviously; there are plenty of cops and people in the military [1] that are responsible with their weapons and do genuinely want to help people, but if you create an institution where people don't have to pay the consequences for their actions, then of course you're going to attract people who want to commit those actions.

The Catholic Church with their abusive priests is one of the most obvious examples. They create a situation where an adult male can be surrounded by kids unsupervised, not be married, and when abuse does happen it is covered up and the priest is moved somewhere else. Combined with the fact that they're paid shit, there's going to be a very strong selection bias of pedophiles.

[1] and who knows, maybe even ICE!

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#163

Post by remich »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #138
empath75 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you stopped to consider how you got to the point that you are defending this. Like, I get sort of working this over in your mind to yourself, but you have gone out of your way to excuse a cop gunning down a mom that just dropped off her kid at school. She had stuffed animals sitting in her dashboard. Her kid is an orphan. You didn't have to do this. You could have just stayed silent. Now you're the guy that is g…

I think this situation is very tragic, and I wish it had not happened. The reason I am taking this stance, is because I think that, unless they are fine with becoming a martyr, people should not go and mess with government officers in the streets. Yeah, I know: “victim blaming”, but there is a difference between officers descending upon a blameless victim vs. you going out looking to make trouble with authority. Even…

What if the instructions they give you would be to submit to them while they assaulted you, sexually or physically? Are you supposed to comply and then challenge them in court later?

That is a thing that happens. Rarely, I suppose, and #notallpolice and all that, but the idea that we should live in a country where everyone just has to "comply" with the instructions or be murdered is ridiculous.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#164

Post by culi »

Natfan wrote: post #158
culi wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jensson is a blatant transphobe. Call a spade a spade

i don't wanna get [flagged] for being uncivil, and i'm unsure on this website's transphobia policies

It's Jensson who should be flagged but HN has a lot of transphobes that will vouch for each other

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#165

Post by [deleted] »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #103
mindslight wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the minutiae of how the victim reacted when she was already well into fight-or-flight mode is a red herring. Real police officers [0] are trained to deescalate situations . Because needlessly turning up the heat results in very bad outcomes for everyone involved. Meanwhile, these ICE "officers" aggressively created and violently escalated a situation arising from a traffic infraction at best [1]. They did…

I would agree with this more if Renee was just a random person that ICE decided to give a hard time. But in this case, it was her decision to become involved and attempt to obstruct the officers from doing the job they explicitly have the authority to do [1]. Also in this case Renee is the one who made the first life threatening action. The fight-or-flight situation is her own doing. People should protest but there a…

[deleted]

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#166

Post by luke5441 »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #85

I don’t think this is as clear cut as anyone on either side is claiming. Looking [1], it does appear that Renee attempted to run the car right into the ICE officer, the wheels were still pointing slightly left, and the officer was still in front of the car. Also in [2] you can see that she was looking directly at the officer during this initial acceleration attempt. The only thing that saved the officer in that initi…

I'm getting really depressed here that people watch those videos and actually think this was not murder.

It's like they live in a different reality or something.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#167

Post by defrost »

tda wrote: post #149

The sharpest (and scariest) analysis I've encountered is this: the administration governs as though no government will ever follow. The blanket pardons for January 6th insurrectionists, the revocation of Secret Service protection for political enemies—these are not the actions of someone who expects to face accountability from a future administration. And that's precisely the point. Trump is not governing recklessly;…

If you're a fan of sharp scary analysis, try

Maduro in Minneapolis (Murderous Lies) by Timothy Snyder - https://snyder.substack.com/p/maduro-in-minneapolis

  The abduction of Maduro was not about naming his crimes, but about ignoring them. The worst thing that Maduro did is just what Trump is beginning to do: killing civilians and blaming them for their own deaths. After Minneapolis, Maduro’s lies are being repeated: in American English, by American authorities.

  The thousands of extrajudicial killings in Maduro’s Venezuela were carried out by organized death squads. These actions were described as defensive. The Maduro regime claimed that the people they murdered were resisting government authority, and that the men who pulled the trigger had been provoked by those whom they murdered.

  Minneapolis has just witnessed an extrajudicial killing, at the hands of ICE, which looks more and more like a presidential paramilitary organization.

  The action was, horribly, excused by the president, the vice-president, and the director of homeland security, using the same lies as those told by Maduro’s Venezuelan regime.

  The victim was resisting government authority, they said.

  The man who pulled the trigger had been provoked, they said.

  It was not the killer who was a terrorist. It was the mom who had just dropped off one of her six-year-old at school.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#168

Post by luke5441 »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #141
UncleMeat wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really have no idea how a human being can look at this video and not see a murder. I'm frightened of you.

That’s interesting, because I’m actually also frightened. But the thing that scares me is how quick everyone wants to jump to conclusions as long as it supports their existing world view.

It's not about a world view. It is about watching a video and seeing what is happening.

Unless you mean "world view" is my knowledge about how cars and guns work.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#169

Post by bananabiscuit »

mindslight wrote: post #151
bananabiscuit wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically in the officer POV video (2nd link in my original post), with how the car was positioned, and that Renee’s partner was walking around outside and was not in the car, and the style of the back and forth dialog between, Renee, her partner, and the officers, all served to give me the impression Renee and her partner were there for a while, and weren’t just “passing through”. Again, I am willing to admit I m…

We had been talking about whether they were physically impeding ICE agents, but now you're framing things as if being " there for a while " would be a problem in and of itself. Meanwhile in America it is every citizen's right, and perhaps even duty, to observe and criticize government agents. To be very clear: stayed stopped on the street [0], observing, filming, and heckling government agents is all Constitutionally…

I never said the U-turn was the only acceptable reason that they could be there, I only mentioned it because it was the most innocent possible reason for Renee to be there that I can think of.

In these cases, isn’t it usual for evidence to be kept out of the public eye until after all relevant court trials are done?

Also, just to be very clear, I am not saying ICE shot Renee because she was being a nuisance. I am saying she got shot because she made an intentional and almost lethal maneuver at the ICE agent with her car.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#170

Post by rozap »

luke5441 wrote: post #161
tda wrote: post #149

The sharpest (and scariest) analysis I've encountered is this: the administration governs as though no government will ever follow. The blanket pardons for January 6th insurrectionists, the revocation of Secret Service protection for political enemies—these are not the actions of someone who expects to face accountability from a future administration. And that's precisely the point. Trump is not governing recklessly;…

My baseline (as an outside observer) is still that they are too stupid and uncoordinated to do a facist take-over. But that a significant possibility even exists that there will be a facist take-over is awful. (The main ingredient for a facist take-over is control over the military and media and he is not creating many loyalists in either)

Mussolini was not the brightest bulb in the tanning bed, but it worked for him.
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