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Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

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Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#401

Post by ajross »

kcplate wrote: post #400
ajross wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s up to the agents to articulate and the investigators, prosecutors, judges, and juries to evaluate. Which will never happen, because the suspect is a faceless (literally) body in a morgue. You're just dodging. Because, and be honest with yourself: you want this to have happened. You want your enemies to be afraid of the (again, literal) secret police wandering the streets in pursuit of your personal political…

You are ascribing a hell of a lot of motivation to me just for stating common and frankly well known facts about whether or not LEOs can detain people. If you don’t like the way the law works, do something to change it, don’t just pontificate on the internet because you are upset.

I ask again: what crime do you think she was being detained to prevent? I'm inferring your motivation from your refusal to engage on the subject you claim to be debating.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#402

Post by mindslight »

kcplate wrote: post #393
mindslight wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone was murdered with plenty of video footage, it's reasonable to form some preliminary conclusions. As you're appealing to a general concept of restraint, I presume you have much harsher criticism for the administration, which immediately dropped into pushing bald faced lies [0] and rejecting responsibility for the situation rather than taking even a moment to assess? Would you care to share that criticism here?…

There is no more need for me to comment on this any further save this: As I predicted, additional footage is now emerging that is showing her actions well prior to the shooting, people coming out who knew her and are describing her connections to activism and affiliations to the media and investigators, and the very words of the woman’s partner as to what they were doing right after the incident on site were recorded…

> her actions well prior to the shooting

Would you care to point at anything specific in these actions that show either one of them physically impeding or otherwise violently aggressing on ICE?

> people coming out who knew her and are describing her connections to activism and affiliations

... because what I'm seeing is a lot of handwaving and innueno.

> the very words of the woman’s partner as to what they were doing

Once again, care to quote anything specific?

I've always been one to go to primary sources, but I haven't seen the need to give this regime the benefit of the doubt since I combed through all those fake legal claims that Trump filed to support his "stolen election" hoax. I guess I'm going to have to break down and just watch this woman be executed over and over to see for myself. But I'd also think if there were facts here that demonstrated she was the initial physical aggressor (as opposed to inconveniently engaging in Constitutionally-protected observation, filming, and heckling), they could be stated quite plainly!

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#403

Post by kcplate »

twixfel wrote: post #207
kcplate wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bro, you aren't anti qualified immunity, you are totally cool with it. > You are cool with this mother being murdered, and her daughter left an orphan tonight, Nope, quite the opposite, I’m just not caught up in the heat of the moment they way you are. When this is evaluated legally your emotion will not be taken into account. I specifically left emotion out of my observation and kept my observation as coldly speci…

> Recently I think the democrats have descended into utter lunacy, but GOP candidates almost never get my vote Lol. And there we have it :) So easy to not be emotional when your enemies are the ones being killed I guess ;)

Enemies?

You should probably not have stopped reading after “my vote”. You could have read further to the point where I described only voting GOP candidate once in the last 15 years…and only then because I was voting against his opponent who I knew personally, and because of that I knew they were corrupt. Perhaps I should have voted for the crook so I passed your acid test of democratic purity?

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#404

Post by SanjayMehta »

metadope wrote: post #210
SanjayMehta wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you think that anyone outside of the US cares about what your regime does to you? I'm pointing out - for the umpteenth time - the sheer hypocrisy of the West, and especially the US. What your regime has been practising since 1945 outside of your borders has finally reached your own towns and cities, and frankly the only question I have is, what took so long?

I would expect humans to care about humans. Your judgment of hypocrisy is yours to own; you point out nothing but your own opinion. You left umpteenth behind a long time ago; you find hypocrisy everywhere, no?

"A government that openly talks about invading other countries, threatens foreign leaders, and normalizes cross-border seizure or removal of heads of state is running the same play abroad that it runs at home: rule by fear. Outside the country, it is coercion dressed up as “security.” Inside the country, it is coercion dressed up as “law enforcement.”"

https://open.substack.com/pub/grumpychineseguy/p/americans-d...

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#405

Post by kcplate »

ajross wrote: post #401
kcplate wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ascribing a hell of a lot of motivation to me just for stating common and frankly well known facts about whether or not LEOs can detain people. If you don’t like the way the law works, do something to change it, don’t just pontificate on the internet because you are upset.

I ask again: what crime do you think she was being detained to prevent? I'm inferring your motivation from your refusal to engage on the subject you claim to be debating.

ICE has had a press conference and explained why their agents approached the car and wanted to detain that driver. They are claiming obstruction of their operations (18 U.S.C. § 111). It doesn’t matter what I think or what you think, only what they thought and what the subsequent other evidence substantiates either validating their claim or not and what a potential jury might decide on the subject.

I’ve explained elsewhere on this HN thread what I observed from the videos we have all seen by now and why I think it will be difficult to waive the qualified immunity of the officer to pursue criminal charges against him. This particular spur of the thread is about whether or not law enforcement can detain people. They have the force and capability to detain, and they have case law that allows it.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#406

Post by kcplate »

mindslight wrote: post #402
kcplate wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no more need for me to comment on this any further save this: As I predicted, additional footage is now emerging that is showing her actions well prior to the shooting, people coming out who knew her and are describing her connections to activism and affiliations to the media and investigators, and the very words of the woman’s partner as to what they were doing right after the incident on site were recorded…

> her actions well prior to the shooting Would you care to point at anything specific in these actions that show either one of them physically impeding or otherwise violently aggressing on ICE? > people coming out who knew her and are describing her connections to activism and affiliations ... because what I'm seeing is a lot of handwaving and innueno. > the very words of the woman’s partner as to what they were doin…

> I guess I'm going to have to break down and just watch this woman be executed over and over to see for myself.

Just like a jury will have to do should this come to trial. The act of judging someone for a crime often means you have to see all the evidence in detail even when it’s disturbing and difficult.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#407

Post by mindslight »

silexia wrote: post #376
mindslight wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

jacquesm is a longstanding member of this community with serious technical chops. He has fabricated his own fucking windmill , among many other awe-inducing projects. I am an American, and I generally find his political judgements to be spot on, or if I disagree then at the very least enlightening. Frankly given the abjectly moronic siren song narratives too many of my "fellow countrymen" have fallen for, we could us…

[flagged]

You just personally attacked jacquesm for not being an American, and then have the gall to complain about personal attacks? Yet another example of reactionary hypocrisy.

From what I (and apparently many others) have seen is that there is no merit to your assertions about what factually happened. It seems as if you're simply repeating what you've heard from the regime, government news sources (eg Fox), or some other bald-faced liars. I'm not saying you yourself are deliberately lying, rather you're caught in a filter bubble so strong it's causing you to rally around the killers of a fellow American citizen.

Sorry, but you're simply not a libertarian. An actual libertarian believes in individual liberty front and center - in this case the freedom for a non-violent woman to not be assaulted and then ultimately killed by government agents, for what amounts to Constitutionally-protected filming, criticism, and heckling. But there is certainly a strain of fake libertarianism whereby people will overindulge in the deductive parts of its framing, attracted to the idea that the violation of a precondition serves as a justification for a draconian response. But this is not libertarianism! Rather it is more appropriately described as cryptofascism.

On this specific topic, I am most certainly open to evidence that Renee physically impeded or assaulted ICE agents before they chose to create an an escalated high-stakes situation. So far I have yet to see any beyond vague allusions and innuendos.

For reference here no, I haven't spent much time on reddit since 2009 or so. When I do, it's mostly to find answers to technical questions. Some of the subs on the top banner of my current throwaways - /r/kubota, /r/woodstoving, /r/vorondesign, /r/buildapcsales. I haven't seem much political commentary in them.

But as far as HN? I'd say HN owns this problem. The way I see it, this topic isn't really politics per se but rather a societal sickness that is the direct result of the consumer surveillance industry that HN helped build.

Also perhaps maybe part of your frustration here comes from having characterized everyone who doesn't support summarily executing American citizens in the street as "far left wackos" ?

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#408

Post by mindslight »

jacquesm wrote: post #387
lamontcg wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're more likely to get scolded here for accusing that person of being a shill/troll than to see them get removed for acting exactly like one. That kind of neutral bias is selectively employed to protect right wing takes from getting attacked by more liberal ones. Although, here's pg with a brief moment of insight: https://xcancel.com/paulg/status/2009219891933630925 > hardcore Trump supporters are indistinguishabl…

Not enough insight to abandon X, and so still lending it and the bots legitimacy.

Your comment got me thinking -

Maybe pg should come back to this board, and make HN his primary venue. Does he really like getting backscatter from all the bots and botlike humans on xitter? He could still syndicate there.

Meanwhile, HN certainly could stand to use an opinionated benevolent dictator (or at least tone-setter), not mere "both sides" moderation (as heroic as it has been). With such an anchor we might be able to constructively discuss these problems without getting derailed by the handful of reactionary flamebaiters.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#409

Post by mindslight »

kcplate wrote: post #406
mindslight wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> her actions well prior to the shooting Would you care to point at anything specific in these actions that show either one of them physically impeding or otherwise violently aggressing on ICE? > people coming out who knew her and are describing her connections to activism and affiliations ... because what I'm seeing is a lot of handwaving and innueno. > the very words of the woman’s partner as to what they were doin…

> I guess I'm going to have to break down and just watch this woman be executed over and over to see for myself. Just like a jury will have to do should this come to trial. The act of judging someone for a crime often means you have to see all the evidence in detail even when it’s disturbing and difficult.

Sorry for continuing to make the judgement that I'd rather spend several more hours of quality time with my son than using that time to come down from the stress of seeing a woman be assaulted and executed again and again from many different angles. I guess I'm just not cut out to be "MAGA" material.

But I do have jury duty a few months from now, and if it requires me to do a similar thing then I will rise to the challenge for my civic duty. I have become quite conservative - supporting our remaining institutions of law and order is especially important in these days of rampant criminality by all three branches of the federal government.

If you want to make your case here, I have asked you two straightforward questions that you have so far thus avoided:

1. Would you care to describe anything specific shown by these videos where either Renee or her wife physically impede or otherwise violently aggress on ICE? (before their escalation into a high-stakes assault on her vehicle. also keep in mind this would be the beginning of forming a logical argument and that the principle of equity between those actions and the response still applies)

2. As you've been appealing to a general concept of restraining judgement, I presume you have much harsher criticism for the administration - as supposed leadership for the country, they immediately dropped into pushing bald faced lies and rejecting all responsibility rather than taking even a moment to examine, reflect, and work to prevent further tragedies regardless of fault. Would you care to share your own criticism here?

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#410

Post by eecc »

kcplate wrote: post #405
ajross wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ask again: what crime do you think she was being detained to prevent? I'm inferring your motivation from your refusal to engage on the subject you claim to be debating.

ICE has had a press conference and explained why their agents approached the car and wanted to detain that driver. They are claiming obstruction of their operations (18 U.S.C. § 111). It doesn’t matter what I think or what you think, only what they thought and what the subsequent other evidence substantiates either validating their claim or not and what a potential jury might decide on the subject. I’ve explained els…

Whatever ICE claims, the murderer broke protocol and whatever excuse they’ll try, surely “feared for his life” doesn’t count.

Operating manuals state that officers cannot use deadly force to stop a vehicle, even if the vehicle itself is used as a weapon, if they can get out of its way instead.

This is clearly a case of an untrained, unhinged, far-right militant, itching for an opportunity to fire and kill a “fucking bitch” (seems ICE is leaving the indefensible idiot out to dry, and prepared the ground by releasing the video from the murderer’s phone).

It’s a hate crime, pure and simple.

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