Live data from Hacker News

Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

washingtonpost.com

91–100 of 284 posts

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#91
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace 'Western' and 'Arabs' with Superpower X and Subjugated peoples Y and it's immediately clear how defective your root cause analysis is. It's an intentionally defective 'root cause analysis' from the perspective of Superpower X, where all wars waged by X on Y have no part in discussion of cause and effect. The rules seem to be: 1. Y is always irrational, savage, subhuman. 2. X is always civilised, noble, well-m…

I'm not looking at this from an impartial point of view, I'm looking at this as an American citizen who greatly enjoys the benefits of having been born in a developed nation with global hegemony. I have no illusions about the various immoral and unethical acts committed by the US government over the last 50-75 (and probably more) years in various 3rd world countries in the name of American interests, nor do I think t…

But failing to undertake a proper root cause analysis is harmful to your stated aims.

You appear to believe that a resurgent radical Islam is primarily due to the rise of wealthy Arab states, and yet these states are aligned to the West, armed by the West, and also suppress the same radical elements you wish to neutralize domestically.

A proper root cause analysis would reveal that violent military intervention coupled with Western political soundbites (which have a modern crusades theme to them) are the real factors responsible for radicalizing elements of Middle Eastern society.

Western and Middle Eastern political organizations with a religious base, radical pastors and imams, and military contractors seem to be the main beneficiaries in this culture war, and domestic citizens in the Middle East and the West seem to be the main losers.

Civil liberties are eroded domestically, a constant state of fear is generated domestically, and travel options internationally are limited. This applies to both Middle Eastern and Western domestic populations.

The simplest and most effective solution is, you say, to limit immigration and assimilate existing immigrants? Historically maybe it's been the 'simplest' approach, in terms of isolating and subjugating 'foreigners' (apart from slavery), but I wouldn't agree that it's been effective in neutralizing resistance to whatever was the hegemony of the age.

Instead I would look at the success of Western countries in cultivating an apathetic population as the counter-intuitive solution for a continued hegemony. Rising living standards, opportunity, and entertainment as distraction.

Look at how China invests in significant infrastructure in Africa to buy stability and access to natural resources. The idea of foreign aid is certainly not new, and the world is littered with US-funded roads and hospitals, but the ratio of destructive / constructive actions is completely the wrong way around.

Why not wage peace, allocate more of the loot to local populations so they see a significant rise in living standards, and cultivate a widening middle class that has less reasons to be sympathetic to radicals?

That seems to me a far more sophisticated approach to exerting and maintaining influence than the traditional "wage war" approach.

Your position seems to be a result of artful misdirection which paints militant Islam as the cause when in fact it is simply the effect of the militant West. It's the bitterest of ironies that the global Defence industry is in fact one of the greatest enemies of continued goodwill and peace for Western populations.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would use some more empathy and adopt a bit more diplomatic attitude if I were you. There will be suicide bombers well after Arabs go back to being desert nomads. It's not all that expensive to blow yourself up.

> It's not all that expensive to blow yourself up. 9/11 was estimated to have required ~$400-500k. And I'd say it'd be quite a bit more expensive to repeat that feat these days.

[deleted]

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#93
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the 13 years he was in Mecca, he attained 150 followers. In Medina he embraced war, assassination, slave-taking and robbery. By the time he died, all of Arabia was muslim. So would you please care to provide evidence to this assertion? How someone with a mere 150 followers could control a whole nation ?

Voldemort managed. ( http://hpmor.com/chapter/34 )

Yea maybe history and fiction are much correlated by the way they are created and explained.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

Wow this is a surprisingly hateful and ignorant comment for Hacker News and its not even getting downvoted.

Well technically it should be getting downvoted for being wrong.

Here he is stating that he is taking an extremely America centric stance, and focused on the shortest path solution.

Its the obvious answer most people come up with, and its dissection and discovery of weak spots is valuable for those who would usually come up with a similar shortest path answer.

At the same time, he has accepted that he doesn't hold the moral high ground.

That should be repeated very clearly - this is a solution which doesn't hold to any high moral values.

So its NOT a good answer - anyone who wants to eschew morality and discuss pragmatism as the greater morality will do well to see its edge and failure cases.

His words should be heard because we can learn from others discussing it. The essence of free speech.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#95
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people Benjamin Franklin addressed that issue "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Sometimes, I wonder what's the next target after free speech. I don't think farmers are a strategic objective. If I had to make that call,…

>Benjamin Franklin addressed that issue "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." I'm simply stating a fact, not making a judgement call. The main thrust of my comment was the lack of plain speaking in that article. It's not a very comfortable fact, but there it is: society often makes practical, rather than principled, choices about stuff l…

What if something like the world being flat or everything revolving around the earth or any important scientific theory was that one thing you weren't free to express a viewpoint on, the problem would remain as no one would ever convince people that conventional wisdom is wrong.

I think these protections around religion will mean that they will be the dominant thoughts on a lot of topics long after they otherwise would be relevant to those topics.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#96

"Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get. Religious criticism seems to unearth the general insecurity that people have about their religion (whatever is might be). If people would be sufficiently secure about their religious views any criticism would just be ignored and people would go on about their business. (Well, the truth is that people are angry to begin with, and religion is just a nice excuse to vent t…

Blasphemy is not the same as criticism. On one extreme of criticism, you use reasoned academic arguments to critique specific doctrines you find unappealing. On the other extreme, you can insult people's culture without being productive at all. Blasphemy is much closer to the second than the first.

Though i think you're right, usually blasphemy is just insulting, is not always the case, defending the theory of evolution is considered a blasphemy by a lot of people. And don't think that is insulting.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#97
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. They won't give up without a fight. The same Neocons that make a big show of decrying Islam to their base also chum around with Saudi Arabia, sucking up the royals. >Arabs w…

while talking about mathematics, please include this as well. Islamic conquest of India bloodiest in the history http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812 History may paint a different picture, but essentially its terrorism in its true form.

No it's not. Firstly you are talking about WAR. That's when armies of men, logistics and materiel are fired at each other.

Terrorism is assymmetric psychological warfare. It's done by forces who are extremely and utterly outclassed in strength.

You essentially are stretching the definition of terrorism so that you can use the hotter buzzword to demonize them and that period of Indian history.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#98
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick question, do you actually think it is the 'militant' or the 'islam' that scares the west? And once you figure out the (right) answer to that question, please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. The real lesson here is what better way to mobilise a generation of a nation into militancy than occupy their country, sell off their assets, kill 5% of the population and then insult their religio…

> please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. No need to rewrite anything, it's both their hostility and philosophical differences that scare us. Overcoming that fear and reaffirming our values is the basis for one of the most important texts in the European culture — The Song of Roland. EDIT: I do know what you mean and I'm sorry but those are just feel-good platitudes. West quite obviously is…

> there aren't really any left

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA)

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/342577631....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-green-phd/anders-behring-...

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/guest_bloggers/...

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#99
post #9

Why can't the article just come out and say what it means? Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. The simple lesson here is that if you want to stop non-believers from doing blasphemy, violent reprisals work . And really, self-censorship is a practical stance, if not a principled one.…

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

> The minute that crude oil loses its relevance to the Western world, the Arabs will just go back to what they were before - a bunch of desert nomads with no real power.

Just as a general rule of thumb: not all Arabs are Muslims and not all Muslims are Arabs.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#100
post #9

Why can't the article just come out and say what it means? Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. The simple lesson here is that if you want to stop non-believers from doing blasphemy, violent reprisals work . And really, self-censorship is a practical stance, if not a principled one.…

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

The minute that crude oil loses its relevance to the Western world, the Arabs will just go back to what they were before - a bunch of desert nomads with no real power.

You forgot the thousand years when they were inventing mathematics while your ancestors were living in mud huts covered in their own shit. Europe wasn't even capable of syllogism until they stole the knowledge back from the arabs.

Post reply on HN