Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#51

Post by bhangi » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 5:55 AM UTC

I feel compelled to point out that most of the examples in the article are free speech that happens to (gratuitously in most cases) piss off the minorities. Notable for their absence are transgressions against authorities -- e.g. the sort of vicious recriminations against whistleblowers whose free speech rights are for naught when they hurt the powers that be. Assange nailed it -- free speech is tolerated only so long as it does not interfere with the interests of the power structure. The moment it does, it will be swiftly dealt with -- under one guise or the other.

Somewhat disappointed in this piece from Turley, who's otherwise quite nuanced.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#52

Post by milfot » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 5:55 AM UTC

coolestuk wrote: post #37

milfot wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick question, do you actually think it is the 'militant' or the 'islam' that scares the west? And once you figure out the (right) answer to that question, please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. The real lesson here is what better way to mobilise a generation of a nation into militancy than occupy their country, sell off their assets, kill 5% of the population and then insult their religio…

Almost the whole world that is islamic became muslim through military occupation, the mass slaughter of the males who fought or would not convert, the looting of property and the selling off into slavery of their women and children. This was all based on emulating the behaviour of Mohammed (known as sunnah in islamic practice); Mohammed took 20% of the spoils from his army of warriors. (Some describe him as the profi…

"Almost the whole world that is islamic became muslim through military occupation."

This is just plain bullshit! The introduction of islam to much of the world was through trade, just the same as the christians. And if you take slavery, trade and military occupations to be evidence that "The real lesson is that some religions are actually militant political movements wrapped up in religion." then I am afraid you will have to say the same of christianity.

Once again, the point is that extremists / militants use religion (or any other reason) to justify occupation, oppression and murder. To fight militant-ism you have to do just two things. 1.resist. 2.not become one.

ps: were you serious about that video you linked? seems like dumb paranoid aryan propaganda to me..

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#53

Post by mcantelon » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 5:55 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

javajosh wrote: post #9

Why can't the article just come out and say what it means? Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. The simple lesson here is that if you want to stop non-believers from doing blasphemy, violent reprisals work . And really, self-censorship is a practical stance, if not a principled one.…

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil

Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. They won't give up without a fight. The same Neocons that make a big show of decrying Islam to their base also chum around with Saudi Arabia, sucking up the royals.

>Arabs will just go back to what they were before - a bunch of desert nomads with no real power

Here's a nice summary of arab contributions to mathematics.

http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/arab/arab.html

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#54

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 5:56 AM UTC

justsee wrote: post #47

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

Replace 'Western' and 'Arabs' with Superpower X and Subjugated peoples Y and it's immediately clear how defective your root cause analysis is. It's an intentionally defective 'root cause analysis' from the perspective of Superpower X, where all wars waged by X on Y have no part in discussion of cause and effect. The rules seem to be: 1. Y is always irrational, savage, subhuman. 2. X is always civilised, noble, well-m…

I'm not looking at this from an impartial point of view, I'm looking at this as an American citizen who greatly enjoys the benefits of having been born in a developed nation with global hegemony.

I have no illusions about the various immoral and unethical acts committed by the US government over the last 50-75 (and probably more) years in various 3rd world countries in the name of American interests, nor do I think they are defensible from a moral/ethical perspective. I'm merely stating the simplest and most effective method of ensuring that the US's global hegemony remains as it is now.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#55

Post by w1ntermute » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 5:58 AM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #53

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. They won't give up without a fight. The same Neocons that make a big show of decrying Islam to their base also chum around with Saudi Arabia, sucking up the royals. >Arabs w…

> Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power.

There are certainly people at home who have just as much of a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is precisely why things haven't changed much at all despite the rise of militant Islam. It's upstarts like Elon Musk that are going to force the hand of Big Oil on this matter. But it will be a long & hard battle, one that may not be won for quite a while.

> Here's a nice summary of arab contributions to mathematics.

I don't see how mathematical contributions hundreds of years ago have any relevance to the modern world. We're talking about a time when the US as a country didn't even exist.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#56

Post by nodemaker » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 5:58 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

javajosh wrote: post #9

Why can't the article just come out and say what it means? Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. The simple lesson here is that if you want to stop non-believers from doing blasphemy, violent reprisals work . And really, self-censorship is a practical stance, if not a principled one.…

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

Wow this is a surprisingly hateful and ignorant comment for Hacker News and its not even getting downvoted.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#57

Post by milfot » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 6:06 AM UTC

spindritf wrote: post #36

milfot wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick question, do you actually think it is the 'militant' or the 'islam' that scares the west? And once you figure out the (right) answer to that question, please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. The real lesson here is what better way to mobilise a generation of a nation into militancy than occupy their country, sell off their assets, kill 5% of the population and then insult their religio…

> please rewrite your post to replace 'islamists' with 'militants'. No need to rewrite anything, it's both their hostility and philosophical differences that scare us. Overcoming that fear and reaffirming our values is the basis for one of the most important texts in the European culture — The Song of Roland. EDIT: I do know what you mean and I'm sorry but those are just feel-good platitudes. West quite obviously is…

At this risk of getting this all out of order (since you edited rather than replying)..

The west is RUN by militant christians (and militant jews and militant atheists etc). They use armies to inflict their particular brand of extremism. They killed about a million iraquis. They murder people in cold blood by dropping missiles from drones from 50,000 ft up. Pretty fucking extreme if you ask me.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#58

Post by snambi » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 6:12 AM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #53

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

>The second thing to do is to invest as much money as possible into developing domestic energy sources, as well as alternatives to crude oil Folks in the West with stakes in maintaining the monopoly on oil as an energy source have a lot of power. They won't give up without a fight. The same Neocons that make a big show of decrying Islam to their base also chum around with Saudi Arabia, sucking up the royals. >Arabs w…

while talking about mathematics, please include this as well. Islamic conquest of India bloodiest in the history http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812

History may paint a different picture, but essentially its terrorism in its true form.

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#59

Post by linuxhansl » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 6:12 AM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #33

linuxhansl wrote: post #21

"Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get. Religious criticism seems to unearth the general insecurity that people have about their religion (whatever is might be). If people would be sufficiently secure about their religious views any criticism would just be ignored and people would go on about their business. (Well, the truth is that people are angry to begin with, and religion is just a nice excuse to vent t…

>"Blasphemy" is one of those things I do not get. Religious criticism seems to unearth the general insecurity that people have about their religion (whatever is might be). You don't get it because you're not a devout Muslim of one of the more violent sects, and this is a pretty common problem with people in the West. There's no point in trying to divine motivations in this particular area without understanding the We…

The violence is there for other reasons. Religion is an outlet. I agree it's not a simple matter.

Neither is just saying they are violent, and that is the end of the story. That is a bit simple, don't you think?

Should I assume that you're "a devout Muslim of one of the more violent sects"?

Re: Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

#60

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 6:13 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #14

javajosh wrote: post #9

Why can't the article just come out and say what it means? Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. The simple lesson here is that if you want to stop non-believers from doing blasphemy, violent reprisals work . And really, self-censorship is a practical stance, if not a principled one.…

> Militant Islam scares the crap out of the West, and we're willing to pass laws and endure a certain level of self-censorship to avoid provoking violence out of these people. This is such a stupid strategy. The right thing to do is to look at the root cause of all this. After all, there are lots of angry people all across the world that hate the Western world and want to hurt it, but most can't. What sets the Arabs…

[deleted]