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A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

nytimes.com

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Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#31

Post by tguvot »

ceejayoz wrote: post #25
tguvot wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so not genocide ? "doing it over and over again", you mean war moves around and not restricted to same 1 square kilometer. and what kind of ethnic cleansing it is, if all population remains in gaza. the trick is, to shift goalposts. if you bomb city with population: genocide. if you order people to evacuate it's ethnic cleansing. if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at w…

There's no single agreed upon definition. Many of them include ethnic cleansing as a form, using wording like "the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups". https://en.wi…

here we go. you finally used (by mistake, but we won't count this against you) appropriate verb: "displaced". population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza.

While on the other side population of Nagorno Karabakh was ethnically cleansed from Nagorno Karabakh and had to leave to Armenia.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#32

Post by FunnyUsername »

ceejayoz wrote: post #30
FunnyUsername wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? I suppose you have a point, my framing was off. But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area is much closer to a fire evacuation than a ghetto where residents are broadly denied freedom of movement. > Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation? Neither did. IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color eith…

> But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area… "Hey, there's a murderer around here, be careful!" - Jeffrey Dahmer > IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area. I didn't say skin color.

How exactly do you expect Israel to fight a war without creating dangerous areas?

The target population they sought to evacuate is just whoever resided in the combat area, which is not an ethnicity.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#33

Post by ceejayoz »

FunnyUsername wrote: post #32
ceejayoz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area… "Hey, there's a murderer around here, be careful!" - Jeffrey Dahmer > IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area. I didn't say skin color.

How exactly do you expect Israel to fight a war without creating dangerous areas? The target population they sought to evacuate is just whoever resided in the combat area, which is not an ethnicity.

> How exactly do you expect Israel to fight a war without creating dangerous areas?

Forced displacement is a war crime. 90% of Gazans have been displaced, with up to 3/4 of the area under interdict (and the areas outside that were still bombed quite regularly). War certainly comes with some inherent danger, but beligerents have responsibilities to civilian populations, especially ones in territories they occupy.

> The target population they sought to evacuate is just whoever resided in the combat area, which is not an ethnicity.

This is not an argument made in good faith, and you know it.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#34

Post by ceejayoz »

tguvot wrote: post #31
ceejayoz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no single agreed upon definition. Many of them include ethnic cleansing as a form, using wording like "the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups". https://en.wi…

here we go. you finally used (by mistake, but we won't count this against you) appropriate verb: "displaced". population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza. While on the other side population of Nagorno Karabakh was ethnically cleansed from Nagorno Karabakh and had to leave to Armenia.

> population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Line_(Gaza)

They have been ethnically cleansed from 53% of the territory thus far.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#35

Post by FunnyUsername »

ceejayoz wrote: post #33
FunnyUsername wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do you expect Israel to fight a war without creating dangerous areas? The target population they sought to evacuate is just whoever resided in the combat area, which is not an ethnicity.

> How exactly do you expect Israel to fight a war without creating dangerous areas? Forced displacement is a war crime. 90% of Gazans have been displaced, with up to 3/4 of the area under interdict (and the areas outside that were still bombed quite regularly). War certainly comes with some inherent danger, but beligerents have responsibilities to civilian populations, especially ones in territories they occupy. > Th…

> Forced displacement is a war crime

With a very important exception for the security of civilians. It's much better to ask civilians to leave before a major military operation than to just start the operation with all the civilians there.

Or do you have a different suggestion for what Israel should done? Just left Hamas alone after Oct 7?

> beligerents have responsibilities to civilian populations

Of course, but you haven't identified any particular responsibilities that were not met here.

> This is not an argument made in good faith, and you know it.

Do you have an actual argument for why what look like standard measures to minimize civilian harm were actually some backdoor ethnic cleansing scheme?

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#36

Post by muwtyhg »

tguvot wrote: post #22
defrost wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you care to take the time to read critically and carefully you'll note it's not _my_ argument. It's one part of the greater case made by several Jewish holocaust and genocide scholars. They each have the same general approach of having multiple criteria and going through weightings for / against each factor. The argument I would make is that this is not some casual quick ill considered process that would conclude…

there are no statements of intents with exception of mistranslated and partial hebrew quotes. i read arguments in full. it mix of cherry picked news, mistranslated/irrelevant quotes and total avoidance of "uncomfortable facts" that go against the narrative. you surely read on the other side few of 400 page long documents that debunk it ?

Could you be more specific in your criticism? As an observer of the conversation, I see the OP making a bunch of substantiated claims/observations and your response is "that's cherry-picked or misleading" but you never refuted a single specific thing they mentioned.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#37

Post by tguvot »

ceejayoz wrote: post #34
tguvot wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here we go. you finally used (by mistake, but we won't count this against you) appropriate verb: "displaced". population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza. While on the other side population of Nagorno Karabakh was ethnically cleansed from Nagorno Karabakh and had to leave to Armenia.

> population in gaza is displaced but still in gaza. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Line_(Gaza) They have been ethnically cleansed from 53% of the territory thus far.

a) they were not ethnically cleansed. even article says "displaced". this is what usually called "internally displaced". My relatives in Ukraine are "internally displaced". There was also 500k Israeli that were internally displaced during war.

b) most of cities/population in gaza is west of yellow line

d) CMCC is currently developing protocols for how to let population move east of yellow line (while preventing militants doing so), because this is where international community starts reconstruction efforts and where ISF will be deployed

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#38

Post by breppp »

ceejayoz wrote: post #27
elbci wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> In their rabid zealotry IDF sacrifice their own reservists by placing them as human shields on stolen Palestinian land. Palestinians while reclaiming their rightful land were forced to retreat but still managed to rescue some 200 of the human shields and took them under protection in Gaza. Both of you are lunatics incapable of comprehending any level of moral gray area, FFS. Oct 7 was not a genocide (and to be clea…

According to Amnesty, October 7 included crimes of extermination, a worse crime than the already devalued word "Genocide", which now amounts to "war i don't like".

They waited with the report two years for the war to end for reasons which aren't too surprising

https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/MDE150...

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#39

Post by elbci »

breppp wrote: post #38
ceejayoz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In their rabid zealotry IDF sacrifice their own reservists by placing them as human shields on stolen Palestinian land. Palestinians while reclaiming their rightful land were forced to retreat but still managed to rescue some 200 of the human shields and took them under protection in Gaza. Both of you are lunatics incapable of comprehending any level of moral gray area, FFS. Oct 7 was not a genocide (and to be clea…

According to Amnesty, October 7 included crimes of extermination, a worse crime than the already devalued word "Genocide", which now amounts to "war i don't like". They waited with the report two years for the war to end for reasons which aren't too surprising https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/MDE150...

oh so now the word genocide is "devalued"... Since we're doing mental gymnastics, does "antisemite" still means hating perpetrators of genocide? How about holowcause, did it change from 'events long ago' to 'ongoing genocide whitewashing buzzword'? And on a serious note: when did the genocide, ahem "war" ended? I've seen the "truce" PR stunt but the killing and starving in Gaza (and West Bank, and all over..) is still going on unabated

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#40

Post by [deleted] »

elbci wrote: post #39
breppp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Amnesty, October 7 included crimes of extermination, a worse crime than the already devalued word "Genocide", which now amounts to "war i don't like". They waited with the report two years for the war to end for reasons which aren't too surprising https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/MDE150...

oh so now the word genocide is "devalued"... Since we're doing mental gymnastics, does "antisemite" still means hating perpetrators of genocide? How about holowcause, did it change from 'events long ago' to 'ongoing genocide whitewashing buzzword'? And on a serious note: when did the genocide, ahem "war" ended? I've seen the "truce" PR stunt but the killing and starving in Gaza (and West Bank, and all over..) is stil…

[deleted]
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