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A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

nytimes.com

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Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#21
post #17
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one single criteria, another is the espression of intent, there are more. See, for example: By May 2024, the Israel Defense Forces had ordered about one million Palestinians sheltering in Rafah — the southernmost and last remaining relatively undamaged city of the Gaza Strip — to move to the beach area of the Mawasi, where there was little to no shelter. The army then proceeded to destroy much of Rafah, a feat…

"army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think. if army had prevented civilians to leave city and then bombed it to the ground, you would have something to talk about.

If you care to take the time to read critically and carefully you'll note it's not _my_ argument.

It's one part of the greater case made by several Jewish holocaust and genocide scholars.

They each have the same general approach of having multiple criteria and going through weightings for / against each factor.

The argument I would make is that this is not some casual quick ill considered process that would conclude every war is a genocide and that all participants in WWII would be considered as committing genocide - as was asserted by the green account I was responding to.

To address your singular observation ... their argument isn't simply based on that single order, it's in conjunction with statements of intent and an entire body of orders.

If you're interested in replying to these arguments then a small amount of effort should find you points of contacts and names for the people advancing the assertion that the current Israeli administration is practicing genocide with respect to Gaza.

I'd suggest and urge you to read their arguments in full before doing so, I've merely quoted a short extract from an opinion piece written by a single person.

IIRC there's a weighty body of submissions put forward when presentations were made to the UN.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#22
post #21
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think. if army had prevented civilians to leave city and then bombed it to the ground, you would have something to talk about.

If you care to take the time to read critically and carefully you'll note it's not _my_ argument. It's one part of the greater case made by several Jewish holocaust and genocide scholars. They each have the same general approach of having multiple criteria and going through weightings for / against each factor. The argument I would make is that this is not some casual quick ill considered process that would conclude…

there are no statements of intents with exception of mistranslated and partial hebrew quotes.

i read arguments in full. it mix of cherry picked news, mistranslated/irrelevant quotes and total avoidance of "uncomfortable facts" that go against the narrative.

you surely read on the other side few of 400 page long documents that debunk it ?

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#23
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think. if army had prevented civilians to leave city and then bombed it to the ground, you would have something to talk about.

> "army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think The trick, though, was to keep doing it, over and over, expanding the area each time, so people never stop having to evacuate, or give up and stay in place to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o "More than three-quarters of Gaza's territory have been designated as evacuation zones by the Israeli…

so not genocide ?

"doing it over and over again", you mean war moves around and not restricted to same 1 square kilometer.

and what kind of ethnic cleansing it is, if all population remains in gaza.

the trick is, to shift goalposts. if you bomb city with population: genocide. if you order people to evacuate it's ethnic cleansing.

if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at what azeri did a while ago.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#24
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think. if army had prevented civilians to leave city and then bombed it to the ground, you would have something to talk about.

> "army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think The trick, though, was to keep doing it, over and over, expanding the area each time, so people never stop having to evacuate, or give up and stay in place to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o "More than three-quarters of Gaza's territory have been designated as evacuation zones by the Israeli…

How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Ethnic cleaning also wouldn't imply genocide anyway.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think The trick, though, was to keep doing it, over and over, expanding the area each time, so people never stop having to evacuate, or give up and stay in place to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o "More than three-quarters of Gaza's territory have been designated as evacuation zones by the Israeli…

so not genocide ? "doing it over and over again", you mean war moves around and not restricted to same 1 square kilometer. and what kind of ethnic cleansing it is, if all population remains in gaza. the trick is, to shift goalposts. if you bomb city with population: genocide. if you order people to evacuate it's ethnic cleansing. if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at w…

There's no single agreed upon definition. Many of them include ethnic cleansing as a form, using wording like "the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions

> if you want to see how ethnic cleansing actually looks, i'll suggest to take a look at what azeri did a while ago.

Gaza saw 90% displaced, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_... says 99%. With 288 deaths, versus at least 60k in Gaza. I'm inclined to see them both as ethnic cleansing? And shitty?

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "army ordered civilians to evacuate from warzone so it's genocide" is not as great argument as you think The trick, though, was to keep doing it, over and over, expanding the area each time, so people never stop having to evacuate, or give up and stay in place to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o "More than three-quarters of Gaza's territory have been designated as evacuation zones by the Israeli…

How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Ethnic cleaning also wouldn't imply genocide anyway.

> How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing?

So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland?

> By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire.

Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation?

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#27
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said “genocide is when unarmed civilians, women and children are murdered en masse”. This is exactly what some Palestinians did on Oct 7

[flagged]

> In their rabid zealotry IDF sacrifice their own reservists by placing them as human shields on stolen Palestinian land. Palestinians while reclaiming their rightful land were forced to retreat but still managed to rescue some 200 of the human shields and took them under protection in Gaza.

Both of you are lunatics incapable of comprehending any level of moral gray area, FFS.

Oct 7 was not a genocide (and to be clear, that's not because Hamas wouldn't like to do one), and it wasn't a rescue operation.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Ethnic cleaning also wouldn't imply genocide anyway.

> How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? > By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation?

> So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland?

I suppose you have a point, my framing was off. But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area is much closer to a fire evacuation than a ghetto where residents are broadly denied freedom of movement.

> Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation?

Neither did. IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area. Jews would have been asked to leave just like anyone else, had they not already been ethnically cleansed from Gaza in 2005.

Re: A Rupture over Israel Is Tearing MAGA Apart

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How could relocation within the same territory be ethnic cleansing? So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? > By that logic, I was ethnically cleansed by our fire department due to an approaching wildfire. Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation?

> So the Warsaw ghetto wasn't ethnic cleasing because they stayed in Poland? I suppose you have a point, my framing was off. But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area is much closer to a fire evacuation than a ghetto where residents are broadly denied freedom of movement. > Did they leave people of certain ethnicities out of the evacuation? Neither did. IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color eith…

> But the IDF asking people to leave a dangerous area…

"Hey, there's a murderer around here, be careful!" - Jeffrey Dahmer

> IDF couldn't care less about someone's skin color either, just that they're in a dangerous area.

I didn't say skin color.

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