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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

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Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#381

Post by nisegami »

MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

Can't the same entities compelling Apple to do this also compel Google to do or not do things?

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#382

Post by ivell »

troupo wrote: post #364
ivell wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web and Apple ecosystem is not comparable. IE had quite large market share and was brought down by Chrome in quite short time. Firefox challenged IE quite effectively before that. But Windows (desktop) still enjoys quite large market share even though Google, Linux and Apple (macOS) are trying hard. The OS lock-in is much more difficult to break than Web where the standards are openly built and made available. One as…

> The OS lock-in is much more difficult to break than Web where the standards are openly built and made available. Where have you been in the past 10 years or so? Chrome views the web as their own fiefdom, and web devs happily oblige. There are now dozens of Chrome-only non-standards that are presented as "openly built standards" and devs deride other browsers for not implementing them.

It is the decision of the other vendors to not implement the standards (for good reasons, like for e.g. privacy - but it is still the vendor's decisionand not an inherent limitation). The documentations and specifications are available for free.

In case of Windows, there is no spec. There is no possibility of implementing another Windows clone (patents limit such clones). Wine exists, but was reverse engineered with great difficulty.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#383

Post by otterley »

leptons wrote: post #377
otterley wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don’t speak for others. The form of questioning is intentional. The person I was responding to claimed they were “forced” to do use a “less secure” browser despite the existence of alternatives like Android. I’m awaiting further details, but anticipate none: most of these conversations boil down to an admission such as, “I’m not really forced to do anything; I just want Apple to let me have my cake and eat it,…

Don't tell me what to do. You completely missed the clues, so I informed you of the context. >The person I was responding to claimed they were “forced” to do use a “less secure” browser despite the existence of alternatives like Android. Now you're being disingenuous. So now you seem to think that Android has the best security people? Before you said it was Apple. But then you keep trying to boost Apple, when they ar…

I’m not contending that Android is more secure than iOS. They’re both improving security all the time. Lessons learned result in improving the battlements.

But that’s not the point here. The point is that the person said they were “forced” to use a “less secure” browser without explanation. “Forced” suggests there are no alternatives, yet there is one. “Forced” and “less convenient for me” are not synonyms.

> notice how Google is not being sued by the DOJ for anything they did with Android? Just Apple for what they are doing with iOS and their app store.

The antitrust suit is not, as you falsely claimed, about intentionally impeding Safari for their selfish benefit. The DOJ made no specific allegation to that effect. (They have outstanding lawyers and would not have omitted that if they had a shred of evidence that it was true.) It’s about Apple insisting on the App Store as the sole distribution channel for third party apps, with particular focus on the size of their cut, and about integration with third-party devices. And besides, at this stage, they’re still allegations—claims that are still subject to judicial scrutiny. The full story has yet to come out.

As with most things, it’s about who keeps the money. Epic Games would never have sued Apple if its cut was 10% instead of 30%, and many commentators have said (and I agree) that Apple shot themselves in the foot by refusing to negotiate with them.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#384

Post by MBCook »

kelthuzad wrote: post #335
MBCook wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what should have happened long ago. As far as I can see there are only two possibilities on any kind of near term: Apple can lock Google and everyone else out, or Google can take over the web fully. Those appear to be our only choices right now. I don’t like either one. But I know which one I don’t like more.

[flagged]

We are helpless now in the near term. It’s not trolling.

What can we do in the next two years (let’s say) that would accomplish both letting other browsers on iOS and preventing Chrome from taking over everywhere?

I don’t know of another option. As far as I can see, that’s it.

Longer term yeah we should break up Google. If they didn’t own Chrome that would fix the problem. But is that going to happen in the next year or two?

Or are we about to hand them even more control and then spend the next 5-10 years trying to unwind it?

As I’ve said elsewhere I don’t like this situation. I don’t think governments should have allowed it to get here. I’m not picking an”favorite monopoly”, just the option of the only two I see right now that I think will do less harm.

We’ve screwed ourselves and I don’t want to make it worse for (at least) quite a few years.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#385

Post by MBCook »

mdhb wrote: post #344
MBCook wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just get buggy. I have absolutely run into sites that work on mobile Safari but not on desktop Safari. Because they don’t test it and don’t care. You HAVE to use Chrome or possibly Firefox. We’ve always seen what Firefox is doing, they’re not going to be our saviors again.

There’s a meaningful amount of blame here that sits squarely at the feet of Apple. 1. They produce the world’s buggiest browser by far. Look at this chart that shows the number of bugs that ONLY OCCUR IN A SINGLE BROWSER. https://wpt.fyi/results/?label=master&label=experimental&ali... 2. They don’t support any modern testing protocols like WebdriverBiDi 3. They don’t make their software available to anyone who isn’t…

> They don’t make their software available to anyone who isn’t using Apple’s hardware.

Why should they? When did this become a rule? If Atari survived would they be required to make Windows software? Be? Commodore?

Where/why does/should the law require everyone to make Windows apps?

Really?

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#386

Post by MBCook »

nisegami wrote: post #381
MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

Can't the same entities compelling Apple to do this also compel Google to do or not do things?

Do you see them doing that on a short term?

The best I saw was the case against Google in the US and they decided not to call for breakup.

I don’t see the EU trying to unbundle everything they do.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#387

Post by kelthuzad »

troupo wrote: post #363
leptons wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox gets paid by Google. A lot. Maybe part of their agreement is to not implement some features because it would compete with Chrome. I don't really know, and I don't really care what Firefox does or doesn't do. I only care that Apple does not allow other browsers to use their own browser engines. Opera mobile also implements the APIs I need (on Android). Even MS Edge supports the APIs. Firefox can join Apple in…

"Every browser that doesn't jump when Google says 'jump' is driven by malicious actors and intent that I can't articulate beyond some tin-foil conspiracy theories" is not as good an argument as you think it is

[flagged]

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#388

Post by troupo »

ivell wrote: post #382
troupo wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The OS lock-in is much more difficult to break than Web where the standards are openly built and made available. Where have you been in the past 10 years or so? Chrome views the web as their own fiefdom, and web devs happily oblige. There are now dozens of Chrome-only non-standards that are presented as "openly built standards" and devs deride other browsers for not implementing them.

It is the decision of the other vendors to not implement the standards (for good reasons, like for e.g. privacy - but it is still the vendor's decisionand not an inherent limitation). The documentations and specifications are available for free. In case of Windows, there is no spec. There is no possibility of implementing another Windows clone (patents limit such clones). Wine exists, but was reverse engineered with…

> It is the decision of the other vendors to not implement the standards

A scribble on a napkin does not a standard make.

A feature released in a single browser engine without support, consent, and against objections of other browser vendors does not a standard make.

Just because Chrome ships something does not make whatever they ship a standard.

> The documentations and specifications are available for free.

That's how Chrome abuses its position and relies on gullible devs to assume that just because something is documented it becomes a standard the moment it's shipped in Chrome.

That's not how standards work.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#389

Post by troupo »

kelthuzad wrote: post #387
troupo wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Every browser that doesn't jump when Google says 'jump' is driven by malicious actors and intent that I can't articulate beyond some tin-foil conspiracy theories" is not as good an argument as you think it is

[flagged]

> by smearing critics as "conspiracy theorists"

I mean, @lepton literally wrote this: "Maybe part of their agreement is to not implement some features because it would compete with Chrome" about Firefox. No smearing required.

> Your deceptive rhetoric in defense of Apple's anti-competitive business practices i

I literally say nothing avout Apple's business practices. All I'm talking are a bunch of Chrome-only non-standards that people on HN pretend are standards and claim that everyone must immediately implement them

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#390

Post by otterley »

leptons wrote: post #375
otterley wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not alleged in the complaint that Apple cripples Safari in order to incentivize developers to build apps instead. Respectfully, did you read it? Also, why would your company cut off its nose to spite its face? If using Bluetooth is a customer requirement (as opposed to merely a “nice to have”), why wouldn’t you go to the lengths to provide an app for them?

>It’s not alleged in the complaint that Apple cripples Safari in order to incentivize developers to build apps instead. Respectfully, did you read it? DID YOU READ IT? Below are some of the relevant sections. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline Rather than respond to competitive threats by offering lower smartphone prices to consumers or better monetization for developers, Apple would meet co…

Merely citing longer passages of the complaint does nothing to better support your initial claim.

We’re done.

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