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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

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Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#351

Post by bangaladore »

dagmx wrote: post #339
bangaladore wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the commenter, not from the Apple page as far as I can tell. My point is the requirement is too broad. It cannot be meaningfully enforced.

It’s literally from their requirements page https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi... You have to request explicit permission to be able to be a browser on iOS. You can’t just ship an app. I assume part of that process is that you specifically demonstrate that you try your best to use best safety practices. Again, it’s also not absolute safety. It’s just due diligence review.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant the WebKit guidelines were from the commenter, not from the apple page.

> or features that improve memory safety within other languages, within the alternative web browser engine at a minimum for all code that processes web content;

This can't be analyzed in any real way, so its just another way that Apple will restrict web engines and claim it was due to "not enough use of memory safety language features"

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#352

Post by pipeline_peak »

mdhb wrote: post #346
pipeline_peak wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What kind of control would Chrome have over the web? Do you remember Manifest Version 3? They did away with ad block extensions. If we all end up using Chromium, there’s no longer a web standard. It’s whatever conforms to Google’s standard because all sites will have to support Chromium. That means there will be an undocumented spec. It’s much too difficult for browser engine developers to compete with them, they d…

Just want to be super clear here… the other party in this question being Apple who is currently the worlds richest company who makes the worlds buggiest browser as seen here https://wpt.fyi/results/?label=master&label=experimental&ali... The idea that you’re pushing is a hole that Apple themselves have dug on purpose, this is not an oversight but a very intentional decision of theirs to protect their profit margins t…

I never once said anything in favor of Safari, that’s not something I’m “pushing”. I’m in favor more than just Chromium.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#353

Post by leptons »

otterley wrote: post #219
leptons wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically for me, my company has a product that could use Bluetooth, but Safari will never implement the Web Bluetooth API, where Chrome has for some time on Android. So the workaround is to use Wifi instead (my product supports both bluetooth and Wifi), which drains the phone battery faster. No, we do not want to write our own iOS app where Apple can then extort us for a percentage of any sales through the app, a…

It’s not alleged in the complaint that Apple cripples Safari in order to incentivize developers to build apps instead. Respectfully, did you read it? Also, why would your company cut off its nose to spite its face? If using Bluetooth is a customer requirement (as opposed to merely a “nice to have”), why wouldn’t you go to the lengths to provide an app for them?

>Also, why would your company cut off its nose to spite its face?

That seems like victim blaming. Apple is the tyrant here.

> If using Bluetooth is a customer requirement (as opposed to merely a “nice to have”), why wouldn’t you go to the lengths to provide an app for them?

Because then have to hire an iOS developer and pay for everything to develop an app, which Apple can then use to extort a percentage of sales for anything purchased through the app. Or I have to write the app myself, and I'm already working 18 hours a day. FUCK THAT. Not going to happen. Apple users will always be second class citizens to me as long as Apple treats other browsers like second class citizens and forbids other browser engines. Making an iOS app isn't a clear pathway to riches, so Apple users will just have to use a more clunky wifi experience. That's just the way it is.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#354

Post by leptons »

crazygringo wrote: post #221
leptons wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically for me, my company has a product that could use Bluetooth, but Safari will never implement the Web Bluetooth API, where Chrome has for some time on Android. So the workaround is to use Wifi instead (my product supports both bluetooth and Wifi), which drains the phone battery faster. No, we do not want to write our own iOS app where Apple can then extort us for a percentage of any sales through the app, a…

> Apple purposely won't implement some APIs so they can force developers to create an app for their app store where they can collect money from any additional sales through the app. So then why doesn't Firefox support the Web Bluetooth API either? How can you jump to the conclusion that the lack of Safari support is about apps ? The reality is that the Web Bluetooth API is a draft. Not ratified. Not on the formal sta…

I don't really care what Firefox does. They get paid massively by Google, so who knows what their motivations are for what they do. Opera implements the same APIs in their browser, but that also doesn't work on iOS because Apple are dicks and force Safari on Opera too.

>Not on the formal standards track.

What a coincidence, Apple gets to vote on what the "formal standards track" is, and they have voted against anything that would hurt their app business.

>But go on assuming it's all about being anticompetitive...

Okay... Apple are anticompetitive and always have been. They forbid their OS from being installed on any hardware that isn't manufactured by Apple, even though it was easily possible to do. Their walled garden is very famous for being anticompetitive - banning any browser from using their own browser engine and forcing Safari is absolutely anti-competitive.

You know what? Just go fucking read the DOJ antitrust suit against Apple, it details the very many ways Apple is anti-competitive:

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

But I bet you won't.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#355

Post by leptons »

troupo wrote: post #216
xp84 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the Chrome features useful? Are they open? If it’s bad for users (e.g. some new ad tracking) or if it’s proprietary and thus expensive to license or reverse engineer that’s one thing, but if it’s not that, then refusing to ever adopt those standards (or to provide their own alternatives) is either foolish NIH syndrome on Apple’s part or it’s greed.

> If it’s bad for users (e.g. some new ad tracking) Yes > but if it’s not that, then refusing to ever adopt those standards (or to provide their own alternatives) is either foolish NIH syndrome on Apple’s part or it’s greed. Note that Firefox's position is literally exactly the same as Apple's on these Chrome-only features: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/

Firefox gets paid by Google. A lot. Maybe part of their agreement is to not implement some features because it would compete with Chrome. I don't really know, and I don't really care what Firefox does or doesn't do. I only care that Apple does not allow other browsers to use their own browser engines. Opera mobile also implements the APIs I need (on Android). Even MS Edge supports the APIs. Firefox can join Apple in being lame, I don't really care.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#356

Post by leptons »

otterley wrote: post #324
leptons wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just their excuse. Javascript is used on practically every web browser in existence, across billions of devices, and it does not have the security risks that Apple claims. It just doesn't. There are plenty of other flaws in their own web browser that have allowed remote code execution, but Javascript isn't typically one of them, in any browser, in any platform, in the last decade or more. And there are plenty…

First, are you a security expert? If so, please provide your bona fides. Apple employs some of the brightest software and hardware security experts in the business. (Cellebrite can attest to this; they possess far fewer capabilities to crack iPhones than every other phone on the market.) If they perceive handling out JIT capabilities to apps as risky, I believe them. You, on the other hand, come with no evidence to t…

>First, are you a security expert? If so, please provide your bona fides.

Nice goalpost move. I'm not playing that game with you.

>Apple employs some of the brightest software and hardware security experts in the business.

And yet Safari still gets hacked.

From the DOJ lawsuit:

16. Apple wraps itself in a cloak of privacy, security, and consumer preferences to justify its anticompetitive conduct. Indeed, it spends billions on marketing and branding to promote the self-serving premise that only Apple can safeguard consumers’ privacy and security interests. Apple selectively compromises privacy and security interests when doing so is in Apple’s own financial interest—such as degrading the security of text messages, offering governments and certain companies the chance to access more private and secure versions of app stores, or accepting billions of dollars each year for choosing Google as its default search engine when more private options are available. In the end, Apple deploys privacy and security justifications as an elastic shield that can stretch or contract to serve Apple’s financial and business interests.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

>If they perceive handling out JIT capabilities to apps as risky, I believe them. You, on the other hand, come with no evidence to the contrary other than a bare assertion.

You are influenced by the reality distortion field, that much is clear, no conversation can be had with a cult member. Have a nice day.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#357

Post by leptons »

otterley wrote: post #336
leptons wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I have to debug it, but I develop for standards, not Apple's wonky implementations of touch events and lots of other things. So I should not need Apple hardware to debug a web browser. I can't install Safari on Android or any other platform, so if there's a bug that only shows up in Safari , then I have to buy Apple hardware . I'd rather not give Apple one goddamned cent of my money, they have already mistr…

> I'm sorry iPhone users, but you'll forever be second class citizens in my product sphere I can’t help but wonder if your company’s leadership shares your level of disdain for your customers.

I am the company leadership, and I really don't care what you think. Go away.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#358

Post by Gabrys1 »

pipeline_peak wrote: post #338
thingortwo wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you want another chromium based browser? The whole point of Ladybird is to kinda prove that a completely independent browser engine is feasible. Also, they are not doing everything from scratch for example it will use the same graphics library that chromium uses (Skia) and also now firefox. You should probably read the FAQ on their homepage: https://ladybird.org/#:~:text=What%20does%20%22No%20code%20f...

> So what do you want another chromium based browser? I want something free of Google code, which sounds like they aren’t doing if Skia is anyway involved. Instead they’re wasting resources where it’s less needed. Like building a JS engine instead of starting off with something like SpiderMonkey, JSCore, or QuickJS.

Let them spend resources however they want. It's not like they are subsidized or anything

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#359

Post by otterley »

leptons wrote: post #356
otterley wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, are you a security expert? If so, please provide your bona fides. Apple employs some of the brightest software and hardware security experts in the business. (Cellebrite can attest to this; they possess far fewer capabilities to crack iPhones than every other phone on the market.) If they perceive handling out JIT capabilities to apps as risky, I believe them. You, on the other hand, come with no evidence to t…

>First, are you a security expert? If so, please provide your bona fides. Nice goalpost move. I'm not playing that game with you. >Apple employs some of the brightest software and hardware security experts in the business. And yet Safari still gets hacked. From the DOJ lawsuit: 16. Apple wraps itself in a cloak of privacy, security, and consumer preferences to justify its anticompetitive conduct. Indeed, it spends bi…

IAAL with experience interpreting Federal antitrust complaints. Allegation 16 is not a specific allegation that Apple deliberately withholds features from Safari in order to steer developers toward building apps. It’s a “narrative” paragraph that is intended to characterize Apple’s overall behavior. It alleges that Apple is self-serving, which, at the end of the day, isn’t really that surprising for an American business enterprise, and isn’t in itself unlawful.

> yet Safari still gets hacked

Talk about moving goalposts.

Every browser to date has had security vulnerabilities, and all the major vendors respond to close them when found to impact customers. Expecting Apple—or any developer for that matter—to have a perfect track record is unrealistic. Moreover, a large part of improving overall security is defense in depth, and it’s unreasonable to expect a vendor obsessed with security on its customers’ behalf to intentionally disable one of its defenses if it’s a known vulnerability vector.

I’m not a member of some Apple cult. There are plenty of things I don’t like about Apple; and no company is perfect. At any rate, name-calling one’s opponents isn’t allowed here, and when a discussion stoops to that nadir, I’m out. I’ll let the reader decide who has the better argument.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#360

Post by pipeline_peak »

Gabrys1 wrote: post #358
pipeline_peak wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what do you want another chromium based browser? I want something free of Google code, which sounds like they aren’t doing if Skia is anyway involved. Instead they’re wasting resources where it’s less needed. Like building a JS engine instead of starting off with something like SpiderMonkey, JSCore, or QuickJS.

Let them spend resources however they want. It's not like they are subsidized or anything

>It's not like they are subsidized or anything

View sponsors https://ladybird.org/

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