I don't think the original article was very good, and I'm glad Laura has had positive experiences (plenty of us guys do try to make sure its a welcoming environment for everyone). There are certainly plenty of well-meaning people out there who have subconscious biases (and plenty of assholes too) so I think at least its good that the topic is brought up occasionally.
On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
181–190 of 213 posts
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
Think a little about what you're saying here. For example, the dictionary definition of atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. However, many religious people believe that atheism is a conscious rejection of an existing God, a deliberate embracing of evil, and that all atheists are intrinsically amoral or indeed im moral. This understanding is so common that most people who do not believe in a go…
I'm not sure what you were hoping to get from that post. I have thought about it. I know people in the US don't identify as atheists because the word has lost its original meaning there. So? People don't refuse to self-identify as feminists because "hateful organizations and individuals have been attacking the word as a proxy for attacking the concept", they refuse because other self-identified feminists promote hatr…
> Radical gender feminists took over feminism and alienated women.
Bullshit. The third wave took over feminism and included homosexuals, transgender and transexual women, and men. Anyone who feels alienated by feminism is being lied to.
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#183Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things witho…
About aggressiveness : It turns out that when women act aggressive, they are often treated differently than men who act the same way. This is a perfect example of where unconscious biases fuck up the system. This is something actual research has been done on, though I don't have any links handy. :(
You may be talking about people who confuse 'aggressive' with 'assertive', which would apply to either gender.
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#184This reminds me of the so-called Tiger Mother. Someone who reinforces the prevailing beliefs but claims credibility due to their status as a member of the group in situ.
I suspect the author is actually a male graduate student in the UK.
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you read the paragraph you quoted? It contradicts your claim. > According to an analysis of Census Bureau data released by Reach Advisors in 2008, single childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most United States cities, with incomes that were 8% greater than males on average. This shift is driven by the growing ranks of women who attend colleges and move on to hig…
Yes, I did read it. You misunderstood "my claim". I was not trying to imply that the study in question supports the idea that men make less than women, rather using it to demonstrate that not controlling all the other factors that effect income shows wildly varying results depending on which factors you do try to control and which you let effect it. >women on the whole haven't reached equal status in any particular j…
Right, when you don't control for anything, you see a gap. The gap dissappears when you actually control for those factors. How does that contradict what I said?
According to the evidence cited in the Wikipedia link, the consensus of MOST researchers is that, even after accounting for every factor that we can account for, there remains a persistent male/female gap.
The existence of this gap may not be the result of sexism. For instance read http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/hvv2m/i_wor... where equal treatment of men and women who are doing equal jobs results in VERY different compensation for women. In the same light http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/career/negotiating-a-higher... shows that the anecdote is supported in wider ranging statistics.
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I did read it. You misunderstood "my claim". I was not trying to imply that the study in question supports the idea that men make less than women, rather using it to demonstrate that not controlling all the other factors that effect income shows wildly varying results depending on which factors you do try to control and which you let effect it. >women on the whole haven't reached equal status in any particular j…
Right, when you don't control for anything, you see a gap. The gap dissappears when you actually control for those factors. How does that contradict what I said? According to the evidence cited in the Wikipedia link, the consensus of MOST researchers is that, even after accounting for every factor that we can account for, there remains a persistent male/female gap. The existence of this gap may not be the result of s…
See, if you just say "the evidence says I am right", while the evidence says the opposite, it is hard to have a reasonable conversation. Rather than cite anecdotes and your perception of how many "researchers" are on your side, how about cite an actual study that controlled for all the factors that can effect income? I posted one, it was even commissioned by the department of labour specifically for policy guidance so they knew how to address the problem that they assumed existed. And yet, it showed there being no gap.
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it is interesting, but what really fascinates me is that I'm one of the only America women in my office and the only one who doesn't come from an Asian immigrant family. When I talk to my American female friends, most of them seem to think IT and computing in general is boring and dull. They wanted interesting careers and didn't think our sector fit the bill. The immigrant/first gen women in my office have a…
Funny. Being a newer-bie into the tech world, this arena has so much more to offer than just straight coding, which I think is like learning a language - as intelligent as learning French, Spanish, or any other. And more crafting the code to produce an awesome product - front end or back end is pretty thrilling. Especially for people who like instant gratification, which includes lawyers, teachers, and others in non-…
Yeah, I like it to. I wish I could convince other ladies otherwise. Plus, it's just a job, and it's a good job that allows me to have good job security. I think their jobs are boring. Sure, they are working in "cool" fields, but a lot of them are essentially doing secretary work.
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure what you were hoping to get from that post. I have thought about it. I know people in the US don't identify as atheists because the word has lost its original meaning there. So? People don't refuse to self-identify as feminists because "hateful organizations and individuals have been attacking the word as a proxy for attacking the concept", they refuse because other self-identified feminists promote hatr…
> Radical gender feminists took over feminism and alienated women. Bullshit. The third wave took over feminism and included homosexuals, transgender and transexual women, and men . Anyone who feels alienated by feminism is being lied to.
Even now plenty of feminists are hostile towards transgender and transexual women, it wasn't just a second wave thing. And second wave feminists didn't vanish into nothingness, they still exist, and still advocate hatred. Why would you suggest that people who choose not to identify with that are "being lied to"? Who is lying to them, and what is the lie?
As to your "bullshit" claim, why do you believe that radical gender feminists and third wave feminists are mutually exclusive groups? Mainstream third wave feminists are almost exclusively gender feminists, and they actively seek to deny equity feminists their views and their identity as feminists. They call equity feminists "anti-feminists" and "self-hating misogynists".
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#189Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either. 1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women. My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance…
I agree with almost all of this save the part about the gender balance eventually evening out.
I don't know that there ever will be parity and I don't know that that is a problem.
Proportional representation is not always desirable or natural. Different groups do things in different proportions. Such is true of men and women; in aggregate, they do things in different amounts. This is not de facto evidence of insidious discrimination; we don't seem to assume so in the case of men not being in female-dominated industries like education.
Ultimately the lack of proportional representation is mostly the result of real differences between men and women. To try to create proportional representation would either demand hiring tokens or heavy duty social engineering to reduce gender differences. I don't like either option.
Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal
#190Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either. 1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women. My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance…
I agree with almost all of this save the part about the gender balance eventually evening out. I don't know that there ever will be parity and I don't know that that is a problem. Proportional representation is not always desirable or natural. Different groups do things in different proportions. Such is true of men and women; in aggregate, they do things in different amounts. This is not de facto evidence of insidiou…
I think "even out" was a bad/lazy choice of words on my part. What I mean is, it will get to a point where the ratio of women in tech will be more or less equivalent to the ratio of women that WANT to be in tech. This may or may not be exactly 50%. It could be 25%. I don't know myself. It's getting better in certain areas, but when you talk about "technical" positions e.g. programming, sysadmin, etc the ratio seems to be pretty bad and far less than what it could be.
Right now I suspect too many women that are kind of interested and may want to do this kind of work are scared off/intimidated (or worse, they never even consider it because of the thought "I'm not that kind of person") by the stereotypes/culture/etc and that's too bad.