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On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

laurasanders.net

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Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#171
post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

90% of regulars here could have written the original article. Therefore, there was little to be gained by reading it.

The rebuttal may not have been of great importance, but we couldn't have written it. It's one person's experience (though there are probably a significant number like her) and it adds to our model of the situation. Also, it makes a significant meta-point: stereotyping is bad even when done by the self-proclaimed champions of the stereotyped group.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it was painful to read that first comment. The attitude that the issue is somehow minor because one hasn't dealt with it in "x amount of years" in the industry is completely moot. These scenarios depend so much on many different factors and tossing it out the window so willingly paints a very broad stroke of ignorance and privilege.

Oh. She doesn't think it's not important nor does she think it doesn't happen. She thought it was sensationalist. She thought that Faruks comments were incredibly broad themselves. Feeling thay saying that every woman in tech fears rape every day and such were over the top.

Sorry, I meant the first comment on the story, should have specified that!

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#173
My experience with women in technology matches the author's but I'll also add that I don't understand why the women in an office together are so cut-throat and brutal towards each other.

If you're trying to answer the question of why there are so few women in IT related roles, the best argument I've heard is that only men are stupid enough to accept the life-style often required by those positions. Sounds plausible to me.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#174

10/2 article on dearth of women in the tech industry. It mentions a key point, in its first paragraph copied below. I agree (and I'm a woman). It’s an important question: why are there so few women working in the IT and telecoms sector? It might be one of the rare times that The Guardian has actually asked an interesting question in fact. The answer is, I’m afraid, that on average men and women are different.

I think it is interesting, but what really fascinates me is that I'm one of the only America women in my office and the only one who doesn't come from an Asian immigrant family. When I talk to my American female friends, most of them seem to think IT and computing in general is boring and dull. They wanted interesting careers and didn't think our sector fit the bill. The immigrant/first gen women in my office have a…

Funny. Being a newer-bie into the tech world, this arena has so much more to offer than just straight coding, which I think is like learning a language - as intelligent as learning French, Spanish, or any other. And more crafting the code to produce an awesome product - front end or back end is pretty thrilling. Especially for people who like instant gratification, which includes lawyers, teachers, and others in non-boring and dull communities.

But alas, the only way attract more females (and of the box ones, too) is to have those in the world. Like attracts like - a universal axiom.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#175
post #32

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things witho…

The rockstar shit is a filter for me. If a company advertises itself as wanting rockstars, ninjas, "hardcore" people, or whatever brogrammer bullshit of the week is, I put that job advert to the bottom of my list. The thought of working around the sort of people who would apply because they consider themselves a hardcore ninja rockstar puts me off. (I spent more than enough time with homophobic macho fuckwits when I…

I think that there is an important difference between suits and dresses. Suits are purely formal attire whereas dresses are formal, but are also designed to present the wearer as sexy. I don't think that there is any mens attire that is analogous to a dress. Anything that a man can wear that is revealing or sexually suggestive is really casual (eg. shorts and no shirt on a beach) or really cheesy/sleazy (eg. deep v-cut t-shirt and super tight pants).

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#176
post #32

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things witho…

With regards to what your professor said regarding the performance of women in computer science programs:

I think that generally when there is a minority group within a program, that minority does relatively well. So many people choose their program because it's the status quo for their gender/race/social status/etc. The people who choose a program outside of what is expected of them probably do so because they have a strong aptitude in that area or are very interested and motivated by the subject.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp... . many studies have found that there is a persistent gap that remains, even when you control for education level, hours worked, experience, etc. It does not say that. It says one single economist testified to that affect. And that others offered rebuttals. Controlling for hours worked, education, experience, etc leaves you with the opposite…

Did you read the paragraph you quoted? It contradicts your claim. > According to an analysis of Census Bureau data released by Reach Advisors in 2008, single childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most United States cities, with incomes that were 8% greater than males on average. This shift is driven by the growing ranks of women who attend colleges and move on to hig…

Yes, I did read it. You misunderstood "my claim". I was not trying to imply that the study in question supports the idea that men make less than women, rather using it to demonstrate that not controlling all the other factors that effect income shows wildly varying results depending on which factors you do try to control and which you let effect it.

>women on the whole haven't reached equal status in any particular job or education level. For instance, women with a bachelor's degree had median earnings of $39,571 between 2006 and 2008, compared with $59,079 for men at the same education level, according to the Census.

Right, when you don't control for anything, you see a gap. The gap dissappears when you actually control for those factors. How does that contradict what I said?

>the "8% advantage", and all the differences quoted in this article, clearly do not control for the type of work performed.

Right, I was not suggesting that the pay gap is reversed, I am suggesting it is entirely accounted for by factors other than sexism. That you aren't complaining about men making less than women shows that you already accept that fact, you just only accept it when it is men making less, and discard it when it is women making less. Despite those two scenarios being just a case of controlling for different factors.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you be a little clearer on what you're hoping I'll take away from those comments? In case it wasn't clear, the gender of commenters isn't that important to me here. There may be people on both sides of the fence, but there aren't two sets of facts. It's "great", if we can apply that word to what should be normal, that some women today haven't had personal experience with sexism, but that doesn't constitute a po…

Of course. She has had personal experience with sexism. But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day. It was sensationalist. I agree with a lot of what you have to say. She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor tha…

> But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day.

I contend that this is a sensationalist statement. The source for this claim, if I understand it, is this:

  ...our world has a history, spanning thousands of years, of 
  violence as a means to silence and control women. This is
  simply not the case for men, and never has been. Every 
  woman carries that historical weight with her wherever she
  goes, whereas very few men even have an understanding of
  how heavy that weight is.
That is simply true, as every African American carries the legacy of chattel slavery anywhere they go. Does this mean every black man is constantly afraid he'll be beaten up and arrested? Of course not. But ignoring that legacy will leave you profoundly confused on the subject of race relations.

Because women do fear rape. No, not the way a hyperbolic strawman fears being knocked down, but day by day in little ways the fear of violence becomes another part of your life.

That creepy guy on the bus who said you looked pretty? He's probably just a harmless old dude. But then he moved to sit next to you and didn't say anything and you were worried he was going to touch you. So you get off at the next stop even though you aren't home yet, because the last time something like this happened that guy found out where you worked and took the same bus as you for a week... And you know he's probably harmless and you feel like an idiot waiting for the next bus except your best friend was raped at a party and had to get an abortion and never told anyone but you and God, why are you even thinking about that? Why is it so hard for men to just leave you alone?

Since we're avoiding generalizations, I will be specific: Every single woman that I have known intimately enough to know such things has such stories. Those who had not been victims of rape themselves, that is. Of course, they don't complain about it, because complaining about it has never, ever helped.

Does that mean "every woman fears being raped all day every day"? Stop talking like that. You know what it means.

> She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor that a man is telling her how she feels) is saying what sexism is to EVERYONE.

I will charitably grant she mistook his speaking in generalities to be making pronouncements. For example, he says "A group of all men just doesn't seem as welcoming to women," to which she retorts "in general I find that men are in fact, more welcoming". They're plainly speaking past each other; he spoke of a statistical fact, such as "Black men are more likely to be arrested", and she responded with a personal fact, such as "I'm not a criminal."

It's obvious why these sorts of general statements are so dangerous, since they're so easy to misinterpret or use for evil (and tacking on some kind of IMHO doesn't help at all). In general, I'd avoid making them in the first place, except there are questions we need them to answer: "Why are so many black men being arrested?" or "Why are so few women entering tech?"

So I think I'd be a lot more charitable toward her position if I saw some indication that she got what the original article was actually about: "I'm concerned about the gender gap in tech. I think it's an important thing for us to be talking about."

Then we can all work to figure out a way to talk about it that doesn't leave some people feeling unrepresented.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#179
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great quote. I try to convey this to people. Melvin Van Peebles didn't complain that blacks were underrepresented in Hollywood. He just went out and made Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song (and it wasn't easy). That movie ushered a new era of black cinema. He solved the problem by doing, not pontificating. I'm not saying there's no room for talking, but at this point no one is bringing anything new to the table; I'm s…

Bill Cosby took another approach. (Both are valid, attacking the front and the flank.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Spy_(1965_TV_series) > I Spy's contribution to American television and society by being the first series to star a black and a white actor together, > (Culp revealed in his audio commentary on the DVD release that he and Cosby agreed early on that "Our statement is a non-statement" regarding race, and…

Speaking of Cosby, he helped finance van Peebles' film.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#180

How does such a waste of bandwidth even get 27 points? Is this site infested with feminists or what?

So you think posts like this shouldn't be on HN, but comments like this should be? That's not the Hacker News I love. What a useless comment. If you actually read it, it's against over the top feminism.

So you think posts like this shouldn't be on HN, but comments like this should be?

That's the best way of making that point that I've ever seen.

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