On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal • Hacker News Board

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#161

Post by ramblerman » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:49 PM UTC

rada wrote: post #146

zachinglis wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I kn…

And I am really disappointed that you've comment-bombed all over this discussion for a good long while before disclosing that you are the author's roommate as well as the copy editor.

Why does that matter? You have an extremely aggressive and dismissive viewpoint when it comes to those who disagree with you.

I'm sorry that you feel HN readers are upvoting the wrong things but maybe (just maybe) it's not so bad. The article you are defending used rape 10 times to make an argument about sexism. I think even Rudy Giuliani would think that excessive.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#162

Post by theorique » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:50 PM UTC

ryanmolden wrote: post #89

theorique wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that they know it's business, not personal. There's no potential hidden agenda about trying to bang your co-worker that there might be if you were single.

Because adultery is unheard of? I am not denying that when you are married or in a known committed relationship the tendency is to interpret things in a purely "two co-workers going to lunch" kind of way, but to assume marriage guarantees that end goal, at least in America, is probably a bit hasty.

Well, being married is a potential obstacle, anyway. Not a perfect guarantee that a platonic workplace relationship won't be misinterpreted.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#163

Post by zachinglis » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:53 PM UTC

mnicole wrote: post #159

zachinglis wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down. There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original commenter was so blindsided in her views about how she thought the OP was blinded in her views, she didn't even stop to smell the irony.

Personally, it was painful to read that first comment. The attitude that the issue is somehow minor because one hasn't dealt with it in "x amount of years" in the industry is completely moot. These scenarios depend so much on many different factors and tossing it out the window so willingly paints a very broad stroke of ignorance and privilege.

Oh. She doesn't think it's not important nor does she think it doesn't happen. She thought it was sensationalist. She thought that Faruks comments were incredibly broad themselves. Feeling thay saying that every woman in tech fears rape every day and such were over the top.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#164

Post by theorique » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

prodigal_erik wrote: post #109

tommorris wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rockstar shit is a filter for me. If a company advertises itself as wanting rockstars, ninjas, "hardcore" people, or whatever brogrammer bullshit of the week is, I put that job advert to the bottom of my list. The thought of working around the sort of people who would apply because they consider themselves a hardcore ninja rockstar puts me off. (I spent more than enough time with homophobic macho fuckwits when I…

We judge people who dress to manipulate, whether it's "trust me" or "pay attention to me". The fact that a cheap costume might influence others' decisions is a social bug, and I kind of resent anyone knowingly exploiting it.

Every form of dress is a form of communication, and has the potential for influence.

Even taking no thought and wearing the simplest possible thing communicates "I invested no effort in putting my outfit on today". Which can itself be a status play - the person doing this is saying, I don't have to dress to impress others.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#165

Post by btilly » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

trhtrsh wrote: post #139

papsosouid wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp... . many studies have found that there is a persistent gap that remains, even when you control for education level, hours worked, experience, etc. It does not say that. It says one single economist testified to that affect. And that others offered rebuttals. Controlling for hours worked, education, experience, etc leaves you with the opposite…

Did you read the paragraph you quoted? It contradicts your claim. > According to an analysis of Census Bureau data released by Reach Advisors in 2008, single childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most United States cities, with incomes that were 8% greater than males on average. This shift is driven by the growing ranks of women who attend colleges and move on to hig…

It always astonishes me to see people selectively quote a source that says the exact opposite of what they want it to say. I've seen it happen often enough that I shouldn't be surprised, but I have trouble understanding the level of fundamental dishonesty that is required to do that.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#166

Post by tommorris » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

mdkess wrote: post #160

tommorris wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rockstar shit is a filter for me. If a company advertises itself as wanting rockstars, ninjas, "hardcore" people, or whatever brogrammer bullshit of the week is, I put that job advert to the bottom of my list. The thought of working around the sort of people who would apply because they consider themselves a hardcore ninja rockstar puts me off. (I spent more than enough time with homophobic macho fuckwits when I…

These nagging bugs pay back dividends in the long term if you are on the right side of them though, which was my point. Let's say that I get a 6% raise every year because I ask for it (either directly, or through promotion), while people who don't get a 4% raise. If someone starts out making $80k a year, after 10 years, the person not asking is making $118k per year, while the person asking for it is making $143k/yea…

Sure, and as a meek, non-arrogant person, I'm so going to be fucked over by this if I'm not careful. :)

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#167

Post by panda_person » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:56 PM UTC

prodigal_erik wrote: post #100

toadburglar wrote: post #46

I think the original article touches on some good points, and I can understand the need for Laura to voice her opinion, but the author MUST have wrote the article with good intentions. Personally, if I were really affected by an article I get in touch with the author, have a skype call and get all the concerns out in the open, and work together to revise the article so that both parties are happy with it. Then if the…

I don't view the low proportion of women in tech as a serious problem (I think it's determined by the typical obsessions of twelve-year-olds). I do view the expectation that they be kinder and less assertive as a problem. It's healthy that she's debating honestly, rather than settling for a compromised version of her points in someone else's work.

"I don't view the low proportion of women in tech as a serious problem (I think it's determined by the typical obsessions of twelve-year-olds)."

Which also has to do with sexism and gender roles in society.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#168

Post by theorique » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:58 PM UTC

mamoswined wrote: post #158

rada wrote: post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

I don't think either article is really that great or deep, but Laura's is a lot more interesting and better written. Faruk's reads like a well-meaning bland HR presentation that everyone ignores. I also am disturbed by how dismissive you are, but my experience in tech is that when sexism comes up, it is always the women who are the meanest. Whether it's the experienced woman who insists she has never experienced sexi…

Agreed. Laura's article was focused and well-argued on specific points.

Faruk's was bland, academic, overwrought, and jargon-laden.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#169

Post by mtoddh » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 4:58 PM UTC

zachinglis wrote: post #112

rada wrote: post #99

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a…

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I kn…

But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism?

It doesn't - it sounds like an appeal to authority. My guess is that had the roles been reversed, with Faruk as a male arguing how he didn't see sexism, and Laura as a female arguing otherwise, that the whole "but Faruk worked for Apple and wrote Modenizr" line wouldn't give his viewpoints on sexism more credence with the parent poster.

Re: On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

#170

Post by zachinglis » Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 5:00 PM UTC

rootedbox wrote: post #152

zachinglis wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape and sexism are not the same thing. Rape is genderless. Despite the fact that rape happens more to women, it happens to both genders. Secondly, just because someone is sexist it doesn't correlate to whether they're rapists or not. Sexism is about ignorance, rape is about many things often anger or control. If you mention rape any time someone says "I get paid less because I'm a girl", it sensationalizes it. It's…

So blacks don't get paid less, get higher interest rates, and jailed more frequently; because of slavery? All class systems invoke a behaviors which is the complete opposite of Meritocracy; They are sensational from one viewpoint but are still prevalent in the class system. If you do not openly address those then you are in fact being passive in allowing the system to continue. Just because you treat women with digni…

He's bringing up valid points surrounded by the word rape. It's almost a Godwin's Law. He's presenting the most extreme example again and again in a post that otherwise has some validity.

Of course I disagree with rape. It's a very personal matter close to my heart for many reasons. But it is an extreme outcome of sexism, it is not the problem because of sexism nor is it the reason sexism happens.