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Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

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Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#91
post #72
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything around DirectX 10 and older has issues with Windows, these days. One more popular example is Grid 2, another is Morrowind. Both crash on launch, unless you tweak a lot of things, and even then it won't always succeed. Need for Speed II: SE is "platinum" on Wine, and pretty much unable to be run at all on Windows 11.

Isn’t this because the wine db has those tweaks pre configured?

Windows used to be half operating system, half preconfigured compatibility tweaks for all kinds of applications. That's how it kept its backwards compatibility.

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#92
post #15

It still puzzles me decades later how MS built the most functional, intuitive and optimised desktop environment possible then simply threw it away

The pivot point was Windows 95.

Competition. In the first half of the 90s Windows faced a lot more of it. Then they didn't, and standards slipped. Why invest in Windows when people will buy it anyway?

Upgrades. In the first half of the 90s Windows was mostly software bought by PC users directly, rather than getting it with the hardware. So, if you could make Windows 95 run in 4mb of RAM rather than 8mb of RAM, you'd make way more sales on release day. As the industry matured, this model disappeared in favor of one where users got the OS with their hardware purchase and rarely bought upgrades, then never bought them, then never even upgraded when offered them for free. This inverted the incentive to optimize because now the customer was the OEMs, not the end user. Not optimizing as aggressively naturally came out of that because the only new sales of Windows would be on new machines with the newest specs, and OEMs wanted MS to give users reasons to buy new hardware anyway.

UI testing. In the 1990s the desktop GUI paradigm was new and Apple's competitive advantage was UI quality, so Microsoft ran lots of usability studies to figure out what worked. It wasn't a cultural problem because most UI was designed by programmers who freely admitted they didn't really know what worked. The reason the start button had "Start" written on it was because of these tests. After Windows 95 the culture of usability studies disappeared, as they might imply that the professional designers didn't know what they were doing, and those designers came to compete on looks. Also it just got a lot harder to change the basic desktop UI designs anyway.

The web. When people mostly wrote Windows apps, investing in Windows itself made sense. Once everyone migrated to web apps it made much less sense. Data is no longer stored in files locally so making Explorer more powerful doesn't help, it makes more sense to simplify it. There's no longer any concept of a Windows app so adding new APIs is low ROI outside of gaming, as the only consumer is the browser. As a consequence all the people with ambition abandoned the Windows team to work on web-related stuff like Azure, where you could have actual impact. The 90s Windows/MacOS teams were full of people thinking big thoughts about how to write better software hence stuff like DCOM, OpenDoc, QuickTime, DirectMusic and so on. The overwhelming preference of developers for making websites regardless of the preferences of the users meant developing new OS ideas was a waste of time; browsers would not expose these features, so devs wouldn't use them, so apps wouldn't require them, so users would buy new computers to get access to them.

And that's why MS threw Windows away. It simply isn't a valuable asset anymore.

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#93
post #15

It still puzzles me decades later how MS built the most functional, intuitive and optimised desktop environment possible then simply threw it away

It's quite common for a company to build a good product and then once the initial wave of ICs and management moves on, the next waves of employees either don't understand what they're maintaining or simply don't care because they see a chance to extract short term gains from the built-up intellectual capital others generated.

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#94
post #90

Can somebody explain: 1. The exact problem with the Linux ABI 2. What causes it (the issues that makes it such a challenge) 3. How it changed over the years, and its current state 4. Any serious attempts to resolve it I've been on Linux for may be 2 decades at this point. I haven't noticed any issues with ABI so far, perhaps because I use everything from the distro repo or build and install them using the package man…

You never ran into a GLIBC version problem?

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#95
post #19

Thus reinforcing development tools that target Windows desktop even further, the OS/2 lesson repeats itself. And failing everything else, Microsoft is in the position to put WSL center and front, and yet again, that is the laptops that normies will buy.

Not to worry, Microsoft can't escape Win32 either. They've tried, with UWP and others, but they're locked in to supporting the ABI.

It's not a moving target. Proton and Wine have shown it can be achieved with greater comparability than even what Microsoft offers.

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#96

Building GUI utilities based on VB6 instead of status quo web technologies might actually be more stable and productive.

I started with VB6 so I'm sometimes nostalgic for it too but let's not kid ourselves.

We might take it for granted but React-like declarative top-down component model (as opposed to imperative UI) was a huge step forward. In particular that there's no difference between initial render or a re-render, and that updating state is enough for everything to propagate down. That's why it went beyond web, and why all modern native UI frameworks have a similar model these days.

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#97
post #65
post #50

This might offend some people but even Linus Torvalds thinks that the ABI compatibility is not good enough in Linux distros, and this is one of the main reasons Linux is not popular on the desktop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&t=283s

It's really just glibc

Can't we just freeze glibc, at least from an API version perspective?

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#98
post #42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already been done, though. Wine has been around for 30 years and has excellent compatibility at this point.

5341 of the 16491 applications listed in the Wine AppDB have a compatibility rating of "garbage". This is not excellent compatibility.

How many of those entries have been tested with recent versions of wine or proton? Seems a poor metric.

Better to consider is the Proton verified count, which has been rocketing upwards.

https://www.protondb.com/

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#99

Crazy how, thanks to Wine/Proton, Linux is now more compatible with old Windows games than Windows itself. There are a lot of games from the 90s and even the 00s that require jumping through a lot of hoops to run on Windows, but through Steam they're click-to-play on Linux.

> There are a lot of games from the 90s and even the 00s that require jumping through a lot of hoops to run on Windows What are some examples?

Pretty much all the Renderware based GTAs have issues these days that only community made patches can mitigate.

A recent example is that in San Andreas, the seaplane never spawns if you're running Windows 11 24H2 or newer. All of it due to a bug that's always been in the game, but only the recent changes in Windows caused it to show up. If anybody's interested, you can read the investigation on it here: https://cookieplmonster.github.io/2025/04/23/gta-san-andreas...

Re: Loss32: Let's Build a Win32/Linux

#100
post #15

It still puzzles me decades later how MS built the most functional, intuitive and optimised desktop environment possible then simply threw it away

It still is if you're an enterprise customer. The retail users aren't Microsoft's cash cows, so they get ads and BS in their editions. The underlying APIs are still stable and MS provides the LTSC & Server editions to businesses which lack all that retail cruft.

Everything after Win 2000 was a bad idea. Enterprise or not.
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