Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

spectrum.ieee.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 320 posts

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#111

Post by Alex2037 »

to11mtm wrote: post #30
lambdaone wrote: post #8

This seems almost too good to be true, and the equipment is so simple that it would seem that this is a panacea. Where are the gotchas with this technology? Clearly power capacity cost (scaling compressors/expanders and related kit) and energy storage cost (scaling gasbags and storage vessels) are decoupled from one another in this design; are there any numbers publicly available for either?

I don't know numbers but I at least remember my paintball physics; As far as the storage vessel, CO2 has much lower pressure demands than something like, say, hydrogen. On something like a paintball marker the burst disc (i.e. emergency blow off valve) for a CO2 tank is in the range of of 1500-1800PSI [0]. A compressed air tank that has a 62cubic inch, 3000PSI capacity, will have a circumference of 29cm and a length…

>cubic inch

>cm

>oz

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#112

Post by mr_toad »

api wrote: post #39
to11mtm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know numbers but I at least remember my paintball physics; As far as the storage vessel, CO2 has much lower pressure demands than something like, say, hydrogen. On something like a paintball marker the burst disc (i.e. emergency blow off valve) for a CO2 tank is in the range of of 1500-1800PSI [0]. A compressed air tank that has a 62cubic inch, 3000PSI capacity, will have a circumference of 29cm and a length…

So… it’s a compressed air battery but with a better working fluid than air. I remember wondering about using natural gas or propane for this a long time ago. Not burning the gas but using it as a compressed gas battery. It liquifies easier than air, etc., but would be a big fire risk if there were leaks while this is not. Seems neat.

Maybe use excess power to produce methane via the sabatier reaction, store that, and then burn it in turbines or use it in fuel cells when needed.

It’ll be interesting to see how the economics of these various solutions play out.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#114

Post by crystal_revenge »

lambdaone wrote: post #8

This seems almost too good to be true, and the equipment is so simple that it would seem that this is a panacea. Where are the gotchas with this technology? Clearly power capacity cost (scaling compressors/expanders and related kit) and energy storage cost (scaling gasbags and storage vessels) are decoupled from one another in this design; are there any numbers publicly available for either?

If you think this is simple, wait until you learn about oceans and forests do!

Trees are literally CO2 based solar batteries: they take CO2 + solar energy and store it as hydrocarbons and carbohydrates for later use. Every time you're sitting by a campfire you're feeling heat from solar energy. How much better does it get that free energy storage combined with CO2 scrubbing from the atmosphere!

When you look at the ocean, it's able to absorb 20-30% of all human caused CO2 emissions all with no effort on our behalf.

Unfortunately, these two solution are, apparently, "too good to be true" because we're increasingly reducing the ability of both to remove carbon. Parts of the Amazon are not net emitters of CO2 [0] and the ocean has limits to how much CO2 it can absorb before it starts reach its limit and become dangerously too acidic for ocean life.

0. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/14/amazon-r...

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#115

Post by B1FF_PSUVM »

nayuki wrote: post #109

> The tried-and-true grid-scale storage option—pumped hydro [--> https://spectrum.ieee.org/a-big-hydro-project-in-big-sky-cou... ], in which water is pumped between reservoirs at different elevations—lasts for decades and can store thousands of megawatts for days. > Media reports show renderings of domes but give widely varying storage capacities [--> https://www.bloominglobal.com/media/detail/worlds-largest-co... ]—…

> big yikes for something coming out of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.

Besides the unit flub, there's an unpleasant smell of sales flyer to the whole piece. Hard data spread all over, but couldn't find efficiency figures. Casual smears such as "even the best new grid-scale storage systems on the market—mainly lithium-ion batteries—provide only about 4 to 8 hours of storage" (huh, what, why?). I could also have used an explanation of why CO2, instead of nitrogen.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#116

Post by buckle8017 »

riffraff wrote: post #86
buckle8017 wrote: post #33

So it's a compressed air facility but it's using dry CO2 because it makes the process easier and CO2 is cheap. Not a carbon sequestration thing, but will likely fool some people into thinking it is. So the question is, how much does it cost? The article is completely silent on this, as expected.

they do say > Energy Dome expects its LDES solution to be 30 percent cheaper than lithium-ion.

That's hardly a number.

30% cheaper than batteries from when? today? two years ago?

huge difference, 30% cheaper than lithium batteries feels like a pitch deck number from years ago to me

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#117

Post by Waterluvian »

nayuki wrote: post #109

> The tried-and-true grid-scale storage option—pumped hydro [--> https://spectrum.ieee.org/a-big-hydro-project-in-big-sky-cou... ], in which water is pumped between reservoirs at different elevations—lasts for decades and can store thousands of megawatts for days. > Media reports show renderings of domes but give widely varying storage capacities [--> https://www.bloominglobal.com/media/detail/worlds-largest-co... ]—…

If 1 watt is 1 joule per second then, honestly, what are we doing with watt-hours?

Why can’t battery capacity be described in joules? And then charge and discharge being a function of voltage and current, could be represented in joules per unit time. Instead its watt-hours for capacity, watts for flow rate.

Watt-hours… that’s joules / seconds * hours? This is cursed.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#118

Post by kumarvvr »

creativeSlumber wrote: post #21

what happens if that large enclosure fails and the CO2 freely flows outside? That enclosure has a huge volume - area the size of several football fields, and at least 15 stories high. The article says it holds 2k tons of co2, which is ~1,000,000 cubic meters in volume. CO2 is denser than air will pool closer to the ground, and will suffocate anyone in the area. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster Edi…

Company says safe limit is 70 meters, about 200 feet.

Easy to build infra and other stuff that far away, especially in locations where this is meant to be used.

There are many aspects of safety

1. If the puncture is due to hurricanes, etc, the danger is non existent. The hurricane will blow away the co2 in no time.

2. If the puncture is due to wear and tear, then the leak will be concentrated and localized. It could naturally diffuse.

CO2 meters can be installed around the unit for indication.

Oxygen masks can be placed around the facility for emergency use.

The dangers are very much mitigatable.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#119

Post by andrewflnr »

pjc50 wrote: post #105
creativeSlumber wrote: post #21

what happens if that large enclosure fails and the CO2 freely flows outside? That enclosure has a huge volume - area the size of several football fields, and at least 15 stories high. The article says it holds 2k tons of co2, which is ~1,000,000 cubic meters in volume. CO2 is denser than air will pool closer to the ground, and will suffocate anyone in the area. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster Edi…

So .. significantly less dangerous than a corresponding volume of natural gas, which is also unbreathable but also flammable/explosive?

Why is that a relevant comparison? Is anyone gathering natural gas in giant balloons near habitations or workplaces?

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#120

Post by ursAxZA »

It might function as a kind of cogeneration-style buffer, but CO₂ still gets emitted in manufacturing and maintenance — and I’m not sure the volumetric efficiency is all that compelling.

Still, if we ever end up with rows of these giant “balloons,” the landscape might look unexpectedly futuristic.

Post reply on HN