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CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

spectrum.ieee.org

101–110 of 320 posts

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#101
post #97
post #77

We don't need another few-hours storage technology. Batteries are going to clobber that. What we need is a storage technology with a duration of months. That would be truly complementary to these short term storage technologies.

I don't understand. Why is a duration of months preferable? What is the benefit above storing energy beyond say peak-to-peak? I suppose you can flatten out seasonal variation, but that's not nearly as big of a problem.

To see the importance, go to https://model.energy/

This site finds optimal combinations of solar, wind, batteries, and a long term storage (in this case, hydrogen), using historical weather data, to provide "synthetic baseload". It's a simplified model, but it provides important insights.

Go there, and (for various locations) try it with and without the hydrogen. You'll find that in a place at highish lattitude, like (say) Germany, omitting hydrogen doubles the cost. That's because to either smooth over seasonal variation in solar, or over long period drop out of wind, you need to either greatly overprovision those, or greatly overprovision batteries. Just a little hydrogen reduces the needed overprovisioning of those other things, even with hydrogen's lousy round trip efficiency.

Batteries are still extremely important here, for short duration smoothing. Most stored energy is still going through batteries, so their capex and efficiency is important.

You can also tweak the model to allow a little natural gas, limiting it to some fixed percentage (say, 5%) of total electrical output. This also gets around the problem. But we utimately want to totally get off of natural gas.

I suspect thermal storage will beat out hydrogen, if Standard Thermal's "hot dirt" approach pans out.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#103
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cheaper, doesn't involve the use of scarce resources, and is expected to have an operational lifetime that is three times longer than lithium ion storage facility. That's a significant difference.

2021 total world energy production of approximately 172 PWh would require 27.5 billion metric tons of lithium metal at typical 0.16g/Wh of a modern LFP cell; meanwhile, we have approximately 230 billion metric tons of lithium for taking (e.g. as part of desalination plants producing many other elements at the same time from the pre-consecrated brine) from the oceans. Note that we require only a fraction of a year's w…

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Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#104
post #77

We don't need another few-hours storage technology. Batteries are going to clobber that. What we need is a storage technology with a duration of months. That would be truly complementary to these short term storage technologies.

A few hours are sometimes enough to start generators when renewable energy supply decreases. Obviously, the more capacity the better, but costs will increase linearly with capacity in most cases. Pumped-storage hydroelectricity - where it is feasible - is the only kind of energy storage close to "months".

Oh: pumped hydro is not a "months" storage technology. The capex per unit of storage capacity is far too high.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#105

what happens if that large enclosure fails and the CO2 freely flows outside? That enclosure has a huge volume - area the size of several football fields, and at least 15 stories high. The article says it holds 2k tons of co2, which is ~1,000,000 cubic meters in volume. CO2 is denser than air will pool closer to the ground, and will suffocate anyone in the area. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster Edi…

So .. significantly less dangerous than a corresponding volume of natural gas, which is also unbreathable but also flammable/explosive?

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#106

> And in 2026, replicas of this plant will start popping up across the globe. > We mean that literally. It takes just half a day to inflate the bubble. The rest of the facility takes less than two years to build and can be done just about anywhere there’s 5 hectares of flat land. Gotta love the authors comitment to the bit. Wow, only half a day you say? And then just between 1 to 2 years more? Crazy.

After the five years of planning approvals and grid connection approvals, of course.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#107

I'm curious if this method could be used along with super critical CO2 turbine generators. In other words after extracting the energy stored in compressed CO2, if you could then run it through a heat exchanger to bring it up to super critical temps and pressure and then utilize it as the working fluid in a turbine.

It looks from the diagram that a turbine is the energy extraction mechanism? As you'd expect.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also sodium batteries are coming to the market at a fraction of the cost. "We’re matching the performance of [lithium iron phosphate batteries] at roughly 30% lower total cost of ownership for the system." Mukesh Chatter, cofounder and CEO, Alsym Energy

Sodium batteries will take 15 years to overtake LFPs cost. Stop gargling on hype please.

That seems unlikely since they can use the same factories and the raw material cost is significantly lower.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#109
> The tried-and-true grid-scale storage option—pumped hydro [--> https://spectrum.ieee.org/a-big-hydro-project-in-big-sky-cou... ], in which water is pumped between reservoirs at different elevations—lasts for decades and can store thousands of megawatts for days.

> Media reports show renderings of domes but give widely varying storage capacities [--> https://www.bloominglobal.com/media/detail/worlds-largest-co... ]—including 100 MW and 1,000 MW.

It looks like the article text is using the wrong unit for energy capacity in these contexts. I think it should be megawatt-hours, not megawatts. If this is true, this is a big yikes for something coming out of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.

Re: CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sodium batteries will take 15 years to overtake LFPs cost. Stop gargling on hype please.

That seems unlikely since they can use the same factories and the raw material cost is significantly lower.

It's not panacea. Only lithium vs sodium is cheaper and they can use lower grade graphite which is just slightly cheaper (overall 30% reduction). Rest is same while it's a new manufacturing process. Meanwhile 99.99% production is focused and will be continued focused LFP.
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