Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

rockpapershotgun.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 377 posts

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#61

Post by LadyCailin »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #47
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

Perhaps. But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business. You would have to be an enormous asshole to say "it'll result in a better equilibrium" to someone who just lost his job.

People in the game industry are pretty often out of work anyways, so I don’t know how much there is to lose there. But industry wide unions can help with this, by providing financial assistance to workers laid off from union organized strikes.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#62

Post by overfeed »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #47
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

Perhaps. But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business. You would have to be an enormous asshole to say "it'll result in a better equilibrium" to someone who just lost his job.

> But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business

I suppose only those who lose their jobs because of a merger, or the CEO making poor decisions ought to get the warm and fuzzies because someone on the Internet won't blame them for their own misfortune.

Somewhere on the spectrum between "egalitarian, flat organization Utopia" and "Slavery", one has to draw a line where entities below that line should not exist.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#63

Post by dragonwriter »

thinkingemote wrote: post #2

I like the idea and encourage software workers unions. Is there an umbrella union that they can belong to? How effective are these new unions? I imagine these new tech unions don't have the same "shop floor" power as in industry. Why is this? Perhaps generally the ideals the new unions are advocating for are different than traditional ones?

> Is there an umbrella union that they can belong to?

The article here mentions the umbrella union that this effort was associated with, Communications Workers of America (which itself is part of AFL-CIO.)

IPFTE, I think, also organizes software developers along with other professional and technical workers, and SEIU has a lot in the public and nonprofit sectors.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#64

Post by LadyCailin »

prewett wrote: post #43
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

That assumes that the union never unfairly exploits the company. I think historical evidence shows that unions sometimes do exploit the company (and that union leaders sometimes exploit the members). Humans exploiting other humans is a flaw of all of us, not just corporate management.

Sometimes, but that’s better than the opposite, which is the default condition.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#65

Post by reactordev »

popalchemist wrote: post #34
hellojesus wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To an extent. There is always the chance that the collective action discounts the impact to the business too heavily and ends up driving the company under, making the outcomes worse for everyone. We saw this a couple years ago with Yellow Trucking.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

So basically almost all game studios should shutdown is what you’re saying.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#66

Post by dragonwriter »

themafia wrote: post #21
paxys wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While things can be bad in software in general, game developers need a union more than anyone. Conditions in that industry are horrendous. The entire period of a game's development is "crunch time". Everyone is exempt, so no overtime of course. And it is standard practice to downsize studios and have mass layoffs right after big launches. It's a shame that so many are drawn to this just because of a passion for gamin…

> Everyone is exempt, This comes with a catch in California. In order to make software developers exempt there is a minimum salary you must pay otherwise you are required to keep them hourly and pay overtime where appropriate. https://www.dir.ca.gov/oprl/ComputerSoftware.htm

> This comes with a catch in California. In order to make software developers exempt there is a minimum salary you must pay otherwise you are required to keep them hourly and pay overtime where appropriate.

That's true federally, too, but the CA salary threshold is much higher.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#67

Post by mrweasel »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #27
thinkingemote wrote: post #2

I like the idea and encourage software workers unions. Is there an umbrella union that they can belong to? How effective are these new unions? I imagine these new tech unions don't have the same "shop floor" power as in industry. Why is this? Perhaps generally the ideals the new unions are advocating for are different than traditional ones?

Situation: There are 14 competing unions. You: That's ridiculous! We need one universal union that covers everyone's needs. Yeah! Situation: There are 15 competing unions.

That's how it works in other countries. Unions are per industry, not per business, because per business is... weird and not really helpful.

The union negotiates salary ranges for the entire industry, so it doesn't matter if one company is being difficult, their organisation (the one that organises the employers of that industry) have agreed to the ranges on their behalf.

If you need to go on strike, the union members employed at other businesses can help cover wages. Your union can also call for sympathy strikes at other businesses, putting additional pressure on the misbehaving company.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#68

Post by seneca »

c-hendricks wrote: post #54
seneca wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium. Claiming that all non-union companies are inherently operating via "unfair exploitation of its staff" is ridiculous. It's entirely possible for a labor union to go too far and drive a company to become noncompetitive…

The statement wasn't really pro or against unions. Simply put, if your company can only survive while exploiting its workers it shouldn't survive. Whether that's due to constant turnover from poor treatment of their employees, or due to union strikes, doesn't change the statement.

That's not at all what the statement I replied to says in context.

hellojesus said "There is always the chance that the collective action discounts the impact to the business too heavily and ends up driving the company under, making the outcomes worse for everyone."

popalchemist said "If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified"

That response is implying that the only way the business could go under due to unionization is because the business was formerly exploiting its staff. It's not just pro-union, it's outright zealotry that ignores reality.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#69

Post by hobs »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #47
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

Perhaps. But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business. You would have to be an enormous asshole to say "it'll result in a better equilibrium" to someone who just lost his job.

And its cold comfort to us all to basically say "let's all agree to slavery so nobody loses their jobs".
Post reply on HN