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Running on Empty: Copper

thehonestsorcerer.substack.com

21–30 of 66 posts

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This seems to be trying to say that we can't make aluminum without copper, but that seems nonsensical. The far better argument is that, if it were simple to replace copper with aluminum, this would create a ceiling on the price of copper. However, this hasn't happened. Many applications of copper can theoretically be replaced by copper, but in practice the reactivity and thermal performance issues of aluminum can be…

> Aluminum wiring in homes, for example, has a very bad reputation. It has an undeserved bad reputation now, but it deserved the bad rep back in the 60s and 70s. The problem wasn’t solely the aluminum conductors themselves, it was also the terminals on wiring devices. The material the terminals and screws were made out of worked fine with copper, but the thermal expansion profile did not work well with aluminum condu…

I live in a home built after 2000 that had aluminum wires run to its heat pump. A few years back coolant leak from the heat pump lead to huge electric usage before the aluminum wiring lit on fire and shorted itself out. Since repaired, but was told at the time original installer didn't correctly do the aluminum grease on the exposed wire parts.

That said I think the wiring there is still thick aluminum.

Not sure I really have a point - all things equal I'd prefer copper, but it seems like aluminum can be fine when done right too - just riskier when done to the quick and dirty homebuilder standard.

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#22

I think the author is speaking authoritatively about things they may be less familiar with, or where they really want to push a particular doomsday / degrowth agenda (the only prescription at the end the article is that we need to stop technological progress). This paragraph in particular caught my eye: > Bah! Who needs copper anyway, when we have so much aluminum?! > Have you thought about how aluminum is made? Well…

> First, no, power can be delivered by wires made out of aluminum and indeed, it often is, I don't think that much of the transmission grid is copper Seconded, aluminum works just fine as a conductor. I’m pretty sure that all overhead utility distribution conductors are a steel core wrapped with aluminum conductors and air for insulation, and I’d bet that underground distribution conductors are also aluminum. SER cab…

> I’m pretty sure that all overhead utility distribution conductors are a steel core wrapped with aluminum conductors

That's the classical setup, but there's been some innovation. These days there's also stuff like aluminium alloys which don't need steel reinforcement, or aluminium reinforced with carbon fiber.

But indeed, copper is vanishingly rare.

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#23

On aluminum, the author says: > “renewables” cannot provide the stable current and carbon atoms needed to make the process possible This is untrue. Iceland has a huge aluminum industry, using mainly geothermal power: https://energytransition.org/2023/03/geothermal-iceland-this... Iceland alone accounts for 1/10th of global aluminum production! https://www.riotinto.com/en/operations/iceland/isal You do need constant,…

Hydro power as well, and usually they put the smelter rather close to the power source to minimize transmission.

But maybe we're still low on copper, IDK, but making aluminum should be rather possible.

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#24
post #19

I think the author is speaking authoritatively about things they may be less familiar with, or where they really want to push a particular doomsday / degrowth agenda (the only prescription at the end the article is that we need to stop technological progress). This paragraph in particular caught my eye: > Bah! Who needs copper anyway, when we have so much aluminum?! > Have you thought about how aluminum is made? Well…

> Second, all that electricity, even if you generate it with nuclear reactors, have to be delivered via copper wires. This is indeed a massive red flag. You need conductors, but the material they are made of is pretty much irrelevant. These days you'd have to search quite a bit to find not-ancient copper conductors in the larger electric grid. Aluminium might have a slightly higher resistance, but when you can just u…

You can sometimes see green copper transmission lines, but they're all rather old and becoming far less common

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#25
For contrast (and with no AI involved) the dot points from a Sept 2024 BHP copper report are roughly:

* Total global copper demand has grown at a 3.1% compound annual growth rate (CAGR) over the last 75 years – but this growth rate has been slowing. It was only 1.9% over the 15 years to 2021. Looking to 2035, however, we expect this growth rate to jump back to 2.6% annually.

Considering global demand expectations, electrification trends, etc. this moves to:

* Putting all these levers together, we project global copper demand to grow by around 70% to over 50 Mt per annum by 2050 – an average growth rate of 2% per year.

On the supply side, considering recycling, the aluminium usage transition point, etc:

* We estimate that the world will need about 10 Mtpa new mined copper supply in the next 10 years.

To get this ...

* Copper reserves and production are concentrated in Latin America, Australia and Africa.

* We expect supply growth over the next 10 years to be dominated by the same regions – Latin America Africa and Asia Pacific – with Africa having the highest growth rate (albeit off a much lower base than Latin America), and Latin America continuing to make the most significant contribution in absolute terms.

Existing mines are falling off (they always are!):

* Currently operating copper mines are expected to provide more than half of the copper required to meet future global demand over the next decade. Even so, we estimate existing mines to be producing around 15% less copper in 2035 than they do today.

* We expect between one-third and one-half of global copper supply to face grade decline and ageing challenges over the next decade, which will drive increased unit costs and the requirement for capital reinvestment. While an incredible orebody can make a big difference, many older operations move up the cost curve as they progress through their life cycle. Given the strong demand signals, however, we expect the industry to vigorously pursue options to extend the life of these copper mines.

Brownfield developments will expand old mines; the practice of processing satellite deposits ignored early on.

Truly new mines:

* Greenfield projects continue to attract significant excitement and interest from developers and investors. They can avoid the challenges of aging facilities and grade decline and can unlock large and higher-grade copper deposits, develop new frontiers, and allow for the application of technology advances without the challenge of retrofitting.

* But they also have potentially even greater challenges to brownfield developments, such as long lead times with environmental and social concerns needing to be navigated for the first time, and uncertainties associated with new jurisdictions or regions. And not all problems can be solved with money. For some projects, it is not a question of investability, but of executability.

* The current pipeline of ‘all possible’ greenfield deposits are generally at the higher-difficulty end of the spectrum – and many are experiencing delays. When we investigated a selection of today’s 30 largest (by expected production volume) undeveloped greenfield projects, we found that analysts (ourselves included) had continually moved the forecast supply stack out in time. We expect these projects to contribute around 5 Mtpa of copper by 2035, or 14% of total possible supply.

The report, in full, is: https://www.bhp.com/news/bhp-insights/2024/09/how-copper-wil...

There are other similar reports from the IEA and other majors.

This is the literal ever ongoing dance of extraction, exploration, and development.

Every cent that goes to exploration is whinged over and penny pinched - it's all buckets of money out the door with no return other than bluesky hope.

As prospects appear and are firmed out, speculative money starts to flow, once Technical Feasibility Reports are in the works a frenzy begins, the bets may or may not pan out when such reports land in a Prospectus seeking forward capital investment.

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#26
post #9

I think the author is speaking authoritatively about things they may be less familiar with, or where they really want to push a particular doomsday / degrowth agenda (the only prescription at the end the article is that we need to stop technological progress). This paragraph in particular caught my eye: > Bah! Who needs copper anyway, when we have so much aluminum?! > Have you thought about how aluminum is made? Well…

> as “renewables” cannot provide the stable current Stopped reading right after that nonsense.

It's a double whammo, because aluminium smelting doesn't require stable current. Modern smelters can modulate their power significantly, with even multi-hour full shutdowns not being a huge problem.

Considering how energy-intensive it is, this means there is quite a big future for using aluminium smelting to soak up dirt-cheap excess renewable energy. Renewables not being stable has suddenly become a feature.

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#27

I think the author is speaking authoritatively about things they may be less familiar with, or where they really want to push a particular doomsday / degrowth agenda (the only prescription at the end the article is that we need to stop technological progress). This paragraph in particular caught my eye: > Bah! Who needs copper anyway, when we have so much aluminum?! > Have you thought about how aluminum is made? Well…

Indeed. Aluminum is actually a (far) superior conductor to copper per unit mass. It would be used on transmission lines even if it was the same price as copper, because the towers can be cheaper and farther apart. It's in increasing use in EVs due to the lower mass. Copper is still used when the conductive density matters, like the windings of an electric motor. But if copper prices increase further, manufacturers wi…

> I've seen increasing use of copper in fairly mundane uses, like computer heat sinks, that used to be aluminum.

Copper heatsinks go in and out of style... Copper heat pipes have stayed en vogue, but typically embedded in aluminum blocks.

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#28

On aluminum, the author says: > “renewables” cannot provide the stable current and carbon atoms needed to make the process possible This is untrue. Iceland has a huge aluminum industry, using mainly geothermal power: https://energytransition.org/2023/03/geothermal-iceland-this... Iceland alone accounts for 1/10th of global aluminum production! https://www.riotinto.com/en/operations/iceland/isal You do need constant,…

> You do need constant, reliable power, as even a brief interruption makes a huge mess when the aluminum/slag freezes in the processor

On the other hand: it has a gigantic thermal mass. Combine this with the energy requires to melt it, and you end up with molten aluminium being trucked over our highways [0]. A brief interruption isn't a big deal when it takes ages to solidify.

[0]: https://old.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3h6r2e/this_truck_car...

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#29

On aluminum, the author says: > “renewables” cannot provide the stable current and carbon atoms needed to make the process possible This is untrue. Iceland has a huge aluminum industry, using mainly geothermal power: https://energytransition.org/2023/03/geothermal-iceland-this... Iceland alone accounts for 1/10th of global aluminum production! https://www.riotinto.com/en/operations/iceland/isal You do need constant,…

Iceland is a tiny country with unusual amounts of energy. Not all renewable sources are the same -- hydropower is fairly reliable too, for example -- but Iceland is just not a useful example for the whole world. The largest geothermal plant in the world by far is in California, but it's a small portion of our total energy use so no one cares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers

Re: Running on Empty: Copper

#30

On aluminum, the author says: > “renewables” cannot provide the stable current and carbon atoms needed to make the process possible This is untrue. Iceland has a huge aluminum industry, using mainly geothermal power: https://energytransition.org/2023/03/geothermal-iceland-this... Iceland alone accounts for 1/10th of global aluminum production! https://www.riotinto.com/en/operations/iceland/isal You do need constant,…

Iceland is a tiny country with unusual amounts of energy. Not all renewable sources are the same -- hydropower is fairly reliable too, for example -- but Iceland is just not a useful example for the whole world. The largest geothermal plant in the world by far is in California, but it's a small portion of our total energy use so no one cares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers

You can locate an aluminum plant pretty much anywhere you want, as the energy required to make aluminum is large compared to the cost of mining/shipping bauxite. This solves the main problem with geothermal, which is that it's in random locations around the world that don't necessarily have many people living there.

Any place with significant volcanic activity (e.g. Hawaii) could probably do geothermal power if they wanted to.

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