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Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

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Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#81

Post by flyinglizard »

MartinCron wrote: post #72
mnjoltr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt singled out for the way that I dress. Now I guess that anyone can debate here if what I said or the initial comment was racist, but I would say that it wasn't, just ignorant and stupid. Personally, I would say that you are the one who is being ignorant and stupid by dressing like a clown, and then getting all huffy when someone gently pokes fun at you. Also, there's nothing racist about not liking someone's cl…

ignorant and stupid by dressing like a clown What a horrible thing to say. You're being insulting to someone who is trying to contribute and you're totally missing the point. We try to be better than that here.

While his wording is a bit blunt, specific attires can cause disrespect and discomfort among staff. When a workplace doesn't enforce a dress code, I assume it expects its employees to be self governing.

I am not convinced that baggies and a hoodie convey responsibility and professionalism, as befitting someone who has been given a free reign to dress as they see fit.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#82

Post by esperluette »

codenerdz wrote: post #39

I cant help but feel that this qu33riousity guys is coocoo. While I think that what he was subjected to is unacceptable, his rhetoric reminds me of conspiracy nutcases that said that US government played a role in the WTC tragedy: "And it’s not a matter of generalizing white people, rather it’s being real about the culture San Francisco creates. Other people of color, including some black people are in on it too, but…

It's sad but true that some members of a minority always find that it's in their personal best interest to be the "good" exemplar of a minority in the opinion of the majority. Think about women who enforce the patriarchy as so that they can be metaphorically patted on the head by men (Phyllis Schafly, Ann Coulter). It's extremely common.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#83

Post by chaostheory »

wonderzombie wrote: post #79
chaostheory wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel that this is a recurring issue in the startup industry. However based on my past work experience, this is definitely not an isolated incident for the video game industry. The only difference between different companies is how they handle it when it arises. I do remember when working at one of the big three video game publishers: 1) HR and managers would repeatedly educate both new workers and existing em…

How often and how likely are you, yourself, likely to be a target of racist language? And how keyed into the more subtle forms of racism are you? I mean these as serious questions, not rhetorically. The thing is, you have to be really careful about selection bias and confirmation bias, here. This example happened to be one of the most egregious examples, the easiest to spot. A lot of the more subtle cues will fly rig…

> How often and how likely are you, yourself, likely to be a target of racist language?

I'm not white, but I'm still extremely not likely to be a target of racist language. In most tech offices, they try to do a good job to avoid unnecessary lawsuits that can cost in the millions. I also feel that tech offices tend to have more educated people on a whole, which massively helps.

> And how keyed into the more subtle forms of racism are you?

I'm aware. "subtle cues" do not "fly right over" my head

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#84

Post by wonderzombie »

codenerdz wrote: post #39

I cant help but feel that this qu33riousity guys is coocoo. While I think that what he was subjected to is unacceptable, his rhetoric reminds me of conspiracy nutcases that said that US government played a role in the WTC tragedy: "And it’s not a matter of generalizing white people, rather it’s being real about the culture San Francisco creates. Other people of color, including some black people are in on it too, but…

I don't know what you're trying to say. Is it not true that the whole reason black people are even in the US is because of colonization? The aftereffects of enslaving a race of people on such a large scale will naturally reverberate throughout history. One of the justifications for slavery in the first place included dehumanization.

And remember, the civil rights era began only 50 years ago. By contrast, Jim Crow -- institutionalized, legally-sanctioned racism -- was the law of the land for 100 years prior. No matter how far we've come, that can and still does leave an impression. A case in point would be Lee Atwater's Southern Strategy; a major party's electoral strategy more or less explicitly hinged on exploiting racism. Or lookup sundown towns.

So what's the problem? It seems perfectly logical and uncontroversial to suggest that the US citizenry, including black people, would still have widespread problems with race, subtle or overt. But on account of the (usually) social rejection of overt racism, people tend to think racism is over. It's pretty straightforward.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#85

Post by wonderzombie »

chaostheory wrote: post #83
wonderzombie wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often and how likely are you, yourself, likely to be a target of racist language? And how keyed into the more subtle forms of racism are you? I mean these as serious questions, not rhetorically. The thing is, you have to be really careful about selection bias and confirmation bias, here. This example happened to be one of the most egregious examples, the easiest to spot. A lot of the more subtle cues will fly rig…

> How often and how likely are you, yourself, likely to be a target of racist language? I'm not white, but I'm still extremely not likely to be a target of racist language. In most tech offices, they try to do a good job to avoid unnecessary lawsuits that can cost in the millions. I also feel that tech offices tend to have more educated people on a whole, which massively helps. > And how keyed into the more subtle fo…

> I'm aware. "subtle cues" do not "fly right over" my head

Fair enough. On the basis of the previous threads on this topic, it seems to me, at least, that most HNers who bothered to comment didn't or don't get it.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#86

Post by graue »

MartinCron wrote: post #71
flyinglizard wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not like it either. I thought it was laid with racist overtones and stereotypes. I also thought that it is peculiar that someone would choose to introduce themselves as a "poor black queer" instead of bringing forth their personality or skills or ideas. Newsflash: if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference.

I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference Just a friendly heads-up, the phrase "sexual preference" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to a lot of people, as the word "preference" implies choice which isn't in line with our best understanding of how sexual orientation works. I'm not offended, but I'm guessing you don't want to accidentally offend people. After all, you don't give a fuck.

I consider myself fairly progressive about these kinds of things, and this is the first I've heard about "sexual preference" being problematic. Is it really used to justify the belief that what gender(s) you're attracted to is a choice? What term should we use instead?

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#87

Post by jacalata »

csomar wrote: post #40
jacalata wrote: post #8

"We don’t even tolerate people brining up concerns of racism here." Wow. I assume that somewhere along the line, that guy misunderstood 'zero tolerance of racism'.

Nope, but you don't want topics where the conversation can get heated like politics or racism.

I'm confused: are you the guy being quoted?

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#88

Post by Torgo »

roguecoder wrote: post #38
barking wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He sounds angry and a bit OTT to me. Inferring that someone is a racist (as you're doing) is extremely serious. Your remark comes across as a bit creepy actually

First, no one inferred that he was racist, they said what he had said sounded racist. Second, why do you think it's "extremely serious" to consider something someone said racist? I consider racism itself extremely serious, but there's no consequence for expressing racism in a quasi-anonymous comment environment. There's not even any consequence for being called a racist. I am utterly confused as to how saying that ra…

You're missing the point. It's unavoidable that if you say "you sound racist" that that attributes a trait to the person rather than their behavior, and is not much different than saying "you are a racist." The rule of thumb is address the behavior rather than the person, which is why the corrective response is supposed to be something like "wow, what you said sounded racist" It's a subtle but important difference. Then you are inviting the person to ask themself internally "did I mean what I said?" or "do I want to sound racist to other people?" instead of going on the defensive because they as a person are being labelled a cultural undesirable. If you make a statement about the person themself there's no avenue forward for discussion or correction, you just made an enemy. But if you make it about the speech, even if they get defensive about it you can clarify that you are addressing the behavior.

There are consequences here because there is username, user identities are often shared across sites, and there is a karma system here. They may be mild, but obviously karma is consequential or it wouldn't exist as a concept on the site. Your score is your aggregate reputation among other users. People fear saying things that will lower their karma.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#89

Post by arohner »

MartinCron wrote: post #68
arohner wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid question: It's already illegal to discriminate and harass on the basis of race. Why do you need a training program to make it less risky to fire people over it?

I think it's less risky because it sends a clear signal to employees that if they're fired for being racist assholes, they don't have any real grounds for to sue for unlawful termination. Even groundless unlawful termination lawsuits are a pain in the ass to deal with. It's better to discourage them than to litigate them.

If they're crass enough to sue for unlawful termination after being racist, what makes you think 'sensitivity training' will make them not sue?

(I'm not trying to be snarky, BTW, just trying to understand hiring law, and bad employees)

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#90

Post by MartinCron »

graue wrote: post #86
MartinCron wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference Just a friendly heads-up, the phrase "sexual preference" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to a lot of people, as the word "preference" implies choice which isn't in line with our best understanding of how sexual orientation works. I'm not offended, but I'm guessing you don't want to accidentally offend people. After all, you don't give a fuck.

I consider myself fairly progressive about these kinds of things, and this is the first I've heard about "sexual preference" being problematic. Is it really used to justify the belief that what gender(s) you're attracted to is a choice? What term should we use instead?

I believe that "sexual orientation" is favored. The parallel I like to use is being right-handed or left-handed. It's not that lefties "prefer" to use their left hand for tasks requiring dexterity, they are oriented that way.
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