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Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

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Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#71

Post by MartinCron »

flyinglizard wrote: post #42
columbo wrote: post #12

I'm one of the people who posted on the previous thread that didn't agree with the tone/method of the original blog post. Not that it matters in the slightest what I think. However, I'm glad it turned out this way.

I did not like it either. I thought it was laid with racist overtones and stereotypes. I also thought that it is peculiar that someone would choose to introduce themselves as a "poor black queer" instead of bringing forth their personality or skills or ideas. Newsflash: if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference.

I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference

Just a friendly heads-up, the phrase "sexual preference" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to a lot of people, as the word "preference" implies choice which isn't in line with our best understanding of how sexual orientation works.

I'm not offended, but I'm guessing you don't want to accidentally offend people. After all, you don't give a fuck.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#72

Post by MartinCron »

mnjoltr wrote: post #66
un1xl0ser wrote: post #56

It is quite clear that this was not an inclusive working environment. Some of the comments on their own are not overtly racist, but it is certainly walking thin line. I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. Jeans, oversized hoodie (hood up), and shit kicker boots. I was sick, and it was freezing out walked into a meeting and it was announced…

I felt singled out for the way that I dress. Now I guess that anyone can debate here if what I said or the initial comment was racist, but I would say that it wasn't, just ignorant and stupid. Personally, I would say that you are the one who is being ignorant and stupid by dressing like a clown, and then getting all huffy when someone gently pokes fun at you. Also, there's nothing racist about not liking someone's cl…

ignorant and stupid by dressing like a clown

What a horrible thing to say. You're being insulting to someone who is trying to contribute and you're totally missing the point. We try to be better than that here.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#73

Post by MartinCron »

rickmb wrote: post #69

This isn't racism. This is bullying, using, amongst many other things, marginally racist remarks as a weapon. That kind of stuff is as much racism as tasteless jokes about wife-beating constitute actual domestic violence. This is clearly a very disfunctional and unhealthy work environment, but with the aggressively paranoid reaction to it is equally unhealthy and most of all, fails to address the actual problem. Afte…

While I don't agree with your "this isn't real racism" premise, I agree that the dysfunctions probably run deeper than that.

I'm reminded of Bob Sutton's great book "The No Asshole Rule". The actions outlined in the blog post are undeniably asshole behaviors, and shouldn't be tolerated in any civilized workplace, with our without the racial implications.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#74

Post by un1xl0ser »

mratzloff wrote: post #61
un1xl0ser wrote: post #56

It is quite clear that this was not an inclusive working environment. Some of the comments on their own are not overtly racist, but it is certainly walking thin line. I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. Jeans, oversized hoodie (hood up), and shit kicker boots. I was sick, and it was freezing out walked into a meeting and it was announced…

> I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. That's not the same thing at all. The guy in question was accused of dressing too "thuggish" when he was wearing skinny jeans and wingtips. In other words, because he was black, regardless of what he was wearing. A joke was made about how you were dressed because you had a hoodie with the hood up and…

Uhm, those comments were not connected in the story, it was wingtips provoking the RUN DMC comment. Baggy jeans and thuggish were connected in the story, which does make some modicum of sense. If anything I would say that the skinny/wingtip == RUN DMC comment was more worrisome because it is completely out there.

Lots of rappers wear hoodies. My point wasn't that anything there was racist, just that you do get comments for dressing differently, not fitting in. Those alone don't make this racist, the other comments do.

So is it that baggy jeans are less professional looking, or a racially motivated attack on urban lifestyle and dress. It doesn't matter really, the rest of the comments provide enough of a backdrop for us to make our own conclusions, which is all this is.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#75

Post by wonderzombie »

rickmb wrote: post #69

This isn't racism. This is bullying, using, amongst many other things, marginally racist remarks as a weapon. That kind of stuff is as much racism as tasteless jokes about wife-beating constitute actual domestic violence. This is clearly a very disfunctional and unhealthy work environment, but with the aggressively paranoid reaction to it is equally unhealthy and most of all, fails to address the actual problem. Afte…

Sorry, no. This about as cut and dried as you get short of slurs (and there were slurs in the original piece, just not directed at the author).

Actually, I'm not really sure if much beyond the most extreme forms of racism actually count, according to your definition. If racist language is not in itself a signifier of racism, then what the heck is?

And at a minimum it ought to be a firing offense. Social censure is ostensibly better, but in an environment where someone defends their remarks with "whoa whoa whoa this isn't racism--- it's jokes!", censure has obviously failed.

The day when white people are a persecuted minority is the day I'll line up right there with you. But we're not even close to that point, no matter how much white dudes like to think their rights (read: privilege) are under siege.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#76

Post by wonderzombie »

codemac wrote: post #29

> While many in San Francisco have begun to use the term "post racist" as a matter-fact-statement to describe the relatively inclusive work environment, the difference between the mostly affluent white community on the peninsula and the impoverished Oakland across the bay is impossible to miss. What? Who says that? The only time I've heard the phrase "post racist" is either The Colbert Report, or people being sarcast…

People think they are "post-racial" if they do not regularly use slurs and/or do not self-identify as racist and/or have friends or coworkers who are not white. Of course, when it comes down to it, very few people self-identify as racist, making this definition not particularly useful.

BUT it is a heck of a lot easier to paper over more subtle forms of racism by identifying racism as only the most outlandish kind, and the rest as someone being too sensitive or what have you.

A good rule of thumb is that everyone is at least a little bit racist. It's less of a problem if you're willing to admit it and work at it, but by suggesting that we are post-racial (we have a black president, therefore racism is over), white people let themselves off the hook from having to think much about race most of the time.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#77

Post by wonderzombie »

flyinglizard wrote: post #55
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... That was rather the point. >if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone And I'm guessing you're white and straight and thus have not spent the amount of timing thinking about others as I and other people have. We're not worried about you. We're worried about people like these employees who DO give "a fuck" about skin tone or sexual preference. It's funny that you condemn him f…

To me it sounded like someone with a rooted "versus" mentality that defines themselves using their externality and sexual preference because, well, its just easier. You are not wrong about me, but I have plenty of gay friends in the workplace, and being talented they don't define themselves through their orientation.

It's a hell of a lot easier not to have a "versus" mentality when you are in a privileged position.

Conversely, when everyone around you can instantly see that you are different, and when you're reminded daily that you are different by mainstream culture, you'd probably have a different attitude. You're visibly, repeatedly, and viscerally reminded that you are Different.

I don't know what that's like, but it's something this particular fellow has to live with every moment of his life. That's going to have an impact on your attitude, and I'm willing to cut the guy more than a little slack.

"Can't we all get along" is a luxury cis, straight, white males have, in no small part because a lot of mainstream American culture is created by and for that set of categories.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#78

Post by flyinglizard »

MartinCron wrote: post #71
flyinglizard wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not like it either. I thought it was laid with racist overtones and stereotypes. I also thought that it is peculiar that someone would choose to introduce themselves as a "poor black queer" instead of bringing forth their personality or skills or ideas. Newsflash: if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference.

I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference Just a friendly heads-up, the phrase "sexual preference" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to a lot of people, as the word "preference" implies choice which isn't in line with our best understanding of how sexual orientation works. I'm not offended, but I'm guessing you don't want to accidentally offend people. After all, you don't give a fuck.

I was not aware of these subtleties. I stand corrected.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#79

Post by wonderzombie »

chaostheory wrote: post #59
w1ntermute wrote: post #2

This was a very disturbing incident, and I can only hope that it was an isolated incident and not indicative of a larger trend in the startup industry. The demographics are skewed enough as it is when it comes to this industry.

I don't feel that this is a recurring issue in the startup industry. However based on my past work experience, this is definitely not an isolated incident for the video game industry. The only difference between different companies is how they handle it when it arises. I do remember when working at one of the big three video game publishers: 1) HR and managers would repeatedly educate both new workers and existing em…

How often and how likely are you, yourself, likely to be a target of racist language? And how keyed into the more subtle forms of racism are you? I mean these as serious questions, not rhetorically.

The thing is, you have to be really careful about selection bias and confirmation bias, here. This example happened to be one of the most egregious examples, the easiest to spot. A lot of the more subtle cues will fly right over your head, especially since a lot of behavior with racist over- or undertones is not something white people are exposed to or experience. (I include myself in this statement.)

Granted, I am assuming you are white, chiefly based on the demographics of HN and the tech community in general.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#80

Post by chaostheory »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #60
chaostheory wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel that this is a recurring issue in the startup industry. However based on my past work experience, this is definitely not an isolated incident for the video game industry. The only difference between different companies is how they handle it when it arises. I do remember when working at one of the big three video game publishers: 1) HR and managers would repeatedly educate both new workers and existing em…

I wonder how much of that is due to the racist, sexist, and anti-gay speech that's endemic to online gaming? Do people take that as setting the tone for the industry? Actually, when I think about it, it seems to me that I see less such speech in online games than I did even just a couple of years ago. Maybe I'm just playing different games from that crowd now.

> Do people take that as setting the tone for the industry?

It's just the same juvenile idiots both online and in the office. Videogame companies tend to attract both the most talented engineers as well as a lot of juvenile idiots. A good HR dept helps mitigate these problems. A video game company without one is either really small or really inexperienced and new.

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