Live data from Hacker News

Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

areweanticheatyet.com

461–470 of 485 posts

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here appears to be the banning. If the cheaters are never banned then they will continue to only play with other cheaters, and everyone is happy. And in fact, to a normal player I doubt they care very much if the player is legit and smurfing or if they are not legit and cheating. That player ruins the game they are in. The ranking system needs to be a better determinate of skill, especially early in a new…

Cheaters don't want to play against other cheaters. If they end up against only cheaters that's a kind of soft-ban or shadow-ban and once they figure out that's the case they'll do the same steps as if you had actually banned them. It also angers legitimate players to know that the top ladder tier is for cheaters only. If you're 200th in the world and legitimate, other players will say you only got that rank through…

Riolu is a uniquely terrible example. While he used Cheat Engine to slow down gameplay, he could have just as easily used TAS to record and replay his inputs since TrackMania is deterministic. This is still possible today. This will always be possible even with Kernel level anti-cheats.

I'll note here that the work that Nadeo has done on the matchmaking aspect is in line with what I'm thinking and should be expanded throughout the online gaming space. A division 10 COTD player will never see a cheater. If cheaters do show up, as they commonly do in Weekly Shorts leaderboards, the community ignores it. Their region leaderboards do a much better job than typical games of bringing the community together and they promote continuity. When top players smurf COTD on a new name, the community sniffs it out within the hour. TM doesn't need anti-cheat.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really familiar with Secure Boot too much. Researching suggests that users can add their own keys so they are trusted by UEFI. Won't this resolve for linux users that must have secure boot on?

It's usually a giant pia. Some distros support it, some make it really difficult. I like to distro hop. I'll often have to try two or three to get to a working system.

I've had no issues setting it up with Fedora and Ubuntu with kmods/Nvidia drivers. I just say I want it, and I have it. It's really easy now.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny because this isn't even a hypothetical, you're actually just wrong! The majority of people who play competitive matchmade games online didn't get consulted, the developers put anti-cheat in after the audience was already entrenched. The players didn't "decide" anything, Riot games decided it in like 2020 and the players have middling to negative feelings about it. You weren't talking about Riot Games? Well…

> It's funny because this isn't even a hypothetical, you're actually just wrong! Citation needed. Strong assertions like "you're just wrong" are automatically false if evidence isn't provided. Where's your evidence for this? > The majority of people who play competitive matchmade games online didn't get consulted, the developers put anti-cheat in after the audience was already entrenched. Completely irrelevant to any…

That they brought up League of Legends in 2020 makes me wonder if they were around when all we had were private servers or custom lobbies. That would explain their rose-tinted glasses.

In games like Warcraft 3 and Halo 2, the automated ranked matchmaking was well-regarded and a huge departure from waiting for a lobby to fill only for the admin to kick you because his friend wants to join or because you're playing the Age of Empires civ that he wants to play.

Auto randomization also baked in solutions to questions like how to stop people from farming rank.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kernel anticheat is not really effective because it can be circumvented on the hardware level, for example using direct memory access with a second computer and screen to show the hidden game state. Cheating is a meat space problem and there is no technical solution to it. Thats why in tournaments there are referees standing behind the players. Ultimately it comes down to checking if metrics like reaction speed are h…

> Cheating is a meat space problem and there is no technical solution to it Cheating is an arms race - the number of people who are willing to run a second computer with DMA connected to a single machine is vastly smaller than the number of people who are wiling to download a dodgy file from the internet and run it. > Ultimately it comes down to checking if metrics like reaction speed are humanly possible, but a root…

This hasn't been true for a very long time. The kind of cheats that can survive even very basic anticheat for a long time cost a decent amount of money on subscription basis. Most cheaters by volume pay quite a chunk of change to cheat.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again back to another arms race. Assuming that your operating system doesn't allow any bad drivers (Windows does NOT do this) physical access to the hardware is just a function of time and money to get direct access to the memory https://x.com/danielgenkin/status/1989003973429268974?s=12 Something like TEE.fail can be used to read encryption keys for network traffic then a MITM proxy can display player informati…

> Assuming that your operating system doesn't allow any bad drivers (Windows does NOT do this) Windows eventually tends to revoke the certificate of vulnerable drivers. And prior to that, anti-cheats will flag the signature and prevent booting or outright ban for egregious ones. > Something like TEE.fail can be used to read encryption keys for network traffic So, encrypt the memory well then? Also, that attack slows…

There are DDR4 interposers you can buy for 50$. The basic thing is that you don't need all of the ram all of the time, you just need to find an address which you can then rewrite to make two valid references to the same physical memory (see: badRAM/battering ram). Then you can use an IOMMU compliant DMA to access that memory.

Or you can use an FPGA to interpose the RAM and intercept the network traffic for a couple hundred bucks.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows eventually tends to revoke the certificate of vulnerable drivers. And prior to that, anti-cheats will flag the signature and prevent booting or outright ban for egregious ones. I have been loading and using the WinIO driver on windows all the way up to the latest version to read and write any memory I want. I also have a few drivers that are lesser known that are not even flagged by most anti-cheats > So, e…

> I have been loading and using the WinIO driver on windows all the way up to the latest version to read and write any memory I want. I also have a few drivers that are lesser known that are not even flagged by most anti-cheats I can assure you that you will get banned from a game with a modern anti-cheat using that or you won't even be able to launch the game. Also 'flagged by most anti-cheats' means very little. Mo…

Why do you need to handle DDR5? You can use DDR3 to play the vast majority of competitive video games. It's not hard to find an FPGA that can handle DDR3 or DDR4.

You also don't need to sniff the entirety of the traffic. You just need to introduce aliasing. That is much harder to do for DDR5 but you don't need it to be reliable or stable for a long time, because you won't be sniffing for very long. And you don't need to do 6000+MT/s either.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#467
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I already have a preformed 4v4, then I don't need anticheat. The question is what to do about the rest of the time for everyone else. Shopping around private servers and dealing with individual server admin quirks is a regression from matchmaking UX that Starcraft had in the late 90s or that Halo 2 had in the early 2000s.

Why not both? If you wanna matchmake, great, go ahead. If you want to run a private server, you can do that too.

I'd love that. I bet that a lot of players would like having the choice, too. AND, data from a few months of a relatively popular game implementing this system should pretty much conclusively settle the question of whether competitive matchmade games should have anticheat.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#468
post #262
post #151

Amongst the discussion of rootkits and anti-cheat, I would like to add that part of the reason it is necessary is caused by the game companies that took away the standard method of playing multiplayer -- players running their own servers. It used to be pretty easy to just ban people from playing, now we're 100% reliant on their ability to do it. So we have anti-cheat which roots our computer, and still doesn't 100% s…

The only actual problem with cheating is leaderboards. When you have accurate matchmaking, you will be playing against other players of a similar skill level. If you we're playing in single-player mode, it wouldn't bother you that some of the players were better than others. Whether the person you're playing against is as good as you because they have aim assist, while you have a 17g mouse and twitch reflexes shouldn…

I worked at a company once that didn't use any anti cheat. I once asked why, and they said the matchmaking system solved the problem for them. The matchmaking was good enough so cheaters only ever played with other cheaters, and it kept the numbers up.

Honest players never really complained, so I guess it worked for them.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play online FPS with friends for fun. I don't care about leaderboards, but I know people that do and don't want to take them away from them. You can't have accurate matchmaking and allow cheating. People cheat for a variety of reasons, at lot of cheaters are just online bullies that enjoy tormenting other players. In a low ELO lobbies, you would have cheaters that have top tier aim activated only if they lose too m…

>"Top tier ELO would revolve around on how the server handle peeker advantage and which cheater as the fastest cheating software. It's an interesting technical challenge, but not a fun game" Fun fact, this does exist. There used to be old CS:GO servers that were explicitly hack v hack, would make it abundantly clear to any new visitors that stumbled upon the servers that you would NOT have any fun without a "client",…

Pretty sure HvH is still alive and well in CS2 and high rank Premier is still basically Valve-hosted HvH.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#470
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, that's one game that's more fun to watch than play I will admit, so mostly I'm a "pro rust watcher with over 300 hours watching rust" (this is a bit of an in-joke, sorry) who sees the annoyance and lack of fun people have when they get destroyed by cheaters. I did play one wipe, and spent 25 hours over 3 days in the game, so I chose to quit right there instead of doing that on a regular basis.

Oh for sure, and even now I occasionally watch videos as background noise during work - but it's just not a fun game for the vast majority of times I log in. I'm about 175 hours in now; and for the one time a month I play, I can't be assed joining anything besides a 3x anymore with a wipe at least 10 days away, it's just too much sunk cost and wasted time even getting a 2x1 down in official or vanilla servers. It's f…

I am a casual watcher of Willjum' Rust single and cooperative plays whenever it rarely pops into my YT feed.
Post reply on HN