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Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

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Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#71

Post by kasabali »

amiga386 wrote: post #70
kasabali wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small but a crucial correction: By XFree86, you meant X.org. XFree86 was the first X11 implementation used by linux distributions from 90's and 00's. Then, in mid 2000's FreeDesktop guys forked it as X.org and convinced all linux distributions to switch to it. ...(now comes the rant part)... ...only to declare X11 as old and unmaintainable and announce Wayland just a few years later. Also note that they twisted the s…

Thanks, I've changed my comments to say Xorg. However, in that potted history, let's not forget a lot of progress and advancement that Keith Packard and the FreeDesktop.org initiative did make. Standardising on autotools/make rather than the obnoxious imake, creating fontconfig rather than requiring arcane settings and conversion software to add fonts, creating the RandR extension and supporting hotplugging monitors…

Good point on Keith Packard. He was never seemed keen on Wayland and was still suggesting improvement ideas on X11 'till 6-7 years ago.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#72

Post by dijit »

slightwinder wrote: post #69
dijit wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

keep telling me my lived experience, please. I have no idea how I lived before you told me what happened in my live. If there was discrimination it was because you didn’t contribute, or you opened the discussion. Doxxing in the 90s wasn't a meaningful risk, and social networks were small and largely isolated. the condescension here is palpable. as if you know more? thanks for your sacrifice: enlightened one.

Hence the "delusion". You are just a typical case of something many here experienced, including myself.

Total pish, once you got online you were just a name.

Didn’t like where you were, there was always somewhere else to go and a new name to take.

Getting access to the internet was a major issue for the poor (a situation I have first-hand experience in)- but once you were in, you were part of the club. Unless you behaved poorly- then you had to make a new name for yourself somewhere else.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#73

Post by amiga386 »

mort96 wrote: post #63
amiga386 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thus your choices for who will maintain Xorg: * The people who made it who also want to murder it * The crazy guy, who knows enough to be useful, but dangerous * Yourself None of these choices are good, and the Xorg developers know that. They're super-stoked about how much compelled Wayland adoption they're going to get.

What I see in freedesktop is a loose association of people trying to make the best libre display server ecosystem they know how to make, and they've collectively come to the conclusion that they're able to make better software by starting from scratch than by patching away at the X11 code base from the 80s. And otherwise it's just a boring standardization committee for protocols. It sounds like you're seeing somethin…

I think, rather, they've collectively come to the conclusion that brownfield development sucks and greenfield development rules. Which is true, if you're a voluntary developer. It's so much fun to play in new developments, and be involved in making history (that some other sucker will maintain in future) rather than maintaining someone else's past glories.

Unfortunately, this means for third-party developers and users that the ecosystem they've built on top of is going to get thrown away, because the first-party developers have prioritised their own fun, over the utility and effectiveness of what they built.

It did not have to be like this. The early freedesktop initiative managed to massively improve XFree86/Xorg without fundamentally throwing out X11. They threw out X11 so they do stuff like this: argue with developers that wanting to know the "primary" screen so they can open on it, is fundamentally, non-negotiably, not allowed, and fuck you for even asking for it (BTW it's standard on Windows, macOS and X11): https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/i...

This is what they live for. This is why X11 has to die.

GNOME has form for this. In describing the "Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers" (CADT) development model in 2003, JWZ says:

> I report bugs; they go unread for a year, sometimes two; and then (surprise!) that module is rewritten from scratch -- and the new maintainer can't be bothered to check whether his new version has actually solved any of the known problems that existed in the previous version.

> It hardly seems worth even having a bug system if the frequency of from-scratch rewrites always outstrips the pace of bug fixing. Why not be honest and resign yourself to the fact that version 0.8 is followed by version 0.8, which is then followed by version 0.8?

> But that's what happens when there is no incentive for people to do the parts of programming that aren't fun. Fixing bugs isn't fun; going through the bug list isn't fun; but rewriting everything from scratch is fun (because "this time it will be done right", ha ha) and so that's what happens, over and over again.

He managed to predict Wayland, or at least the causes of Wayland, back in 2003.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#74

Post by lawn »

dijit wrote: post #60
lawn wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Nazi germany only one third actively supported their policies and one third opposed it. The remaining third didn't care and they were enablers. If you don't actively oppose discrimination then you're indirectly supporting it by being a passive enabler.

I don’t fucking care about Nazi Germany, I see facism from both ends of the US political spectrum honestly. “do what I say the way I tell you to do it or else you're a nazi sympathiser at best ” is a super compelling argument by the way. Good going. Grow up the lot of you. We all have to learn to live together.

> I don’t fucking care about Nazi Germany, I see facism from both ends of the US political spectrum honestly.

It's not about fascism in particular, but the behavior that enables it and other discriminatory control systems.

> “do what I say the way I tell you to do it or else you're a nazi sympathiser at best” is a super compelling argument by the way.

That's not the argument, which you may have realized if you weren't so upset.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#75

Post by slightwinder »

dijit wrote: post #72
slightwinder wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence the "delusion". You are just a typical case of something many here experienced, including myself.

Total pish, once you got online you were just a name. Didn’t like where you were, there was always somewhere else to go and a new name to take. Getting access to the internet was a major issue for the poor (a situation I have first-hand experience in)- but once you were in, you were part of the club. Unless you behaved poorly- then you had to make a new name for yourself somewhere else.

Writing all those delusions and not connecting the dots is insightful.. You are so pampered in your own little delusion that don't seem to understand the actual concept of real discrimination. And looking at your socials, I understand why, you don't look like someone who has ever experienced real discrimination and just hissy fit about any hurt feelings as "discrimination".

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#76

Post by dijit »

lawn wrote: post #74
dijit wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t fucking care about Nazi Germany, I see facism from both ends of the US political spectrum honestly. “do what I say the way I tell you to do it or else you're a nazi sympathiser at best ” is a super compelling argument by the way. Good going. Grow up the lot of you. We all have to learn to live together.

> I don’t fucking care about Nazi Germany, I see facism from both ends of the US political spectrum honestly. It's not about fascism in particular, but the behavior that enables it and other discriminatory control systems. > “do what I say the way I tell you to do it or else you're a nazi sympathiser at best” is a super compelling argument by the way. That's not the argument, which you may have realized if you weren'…

> That's not the argument, which you may have realized if you weren't so upset.

“Do DEI the way we say, or else” is littrally what we’re discussing. The PR guidelines state that background doesn’t matter.

Ignorance of context is not a compelling argument either, though I notice that people I would ideologically align with on the internet treat it like a weapon. Ugh

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#77

Post by dijit »

slightwinder wrote: post #75
dijit wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total pish, once you got online you were just a name. Didn’t like where you were, there was always somewhere else to go and a new name to take. Getting access to the internet was a major issue for the poor (a situation I have first-hand experience in)- but once you were in, you were part of the club. Unless you behaved poorly- then you had to make a new name for yourself somewhere else.

Writing all those delusions and not connecting the dots is insightful.. You are so pampered in your own little delusion that don't seem to understand the actual concept of real discrimination. And looking at your socials, I understand why, you don't look like someone who has ever experienced real discrimination and just hissy fit about any hurt feelings as "discrimination".

[flagged]

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#78

Post by fa3556 »

I feel like the ship has sailed for X11 or any fork of it, regardless of its technical merits (or the lack thereof). All the major DEs (KDE, Gnome, COSMIC) are either already wayland exclusive or soon will be. New DEs like niri, hyprland, sway, etc. are all wayland only from the start (some like niri dont even have xwayland support, instead pointing users to an external project, xwayland satellite, for running X11 apps).

And for almost all the somewhat famous traditional X11 DEs or tiling managers or wms, there is now a wayland compositor mimicking them. Cinnamon and XFCE both have advanced wayland sessions (a recent review of LMDE 7 by distrowatch praised Cinnamon's wayland session as even better than KDE's wayland). They might support X11 for now but it will be increasingly harder to maintain both especially if the majority of their users use the wayland session. This will lead to bit-rotting of the X11 code paths both here and upstream (GTK, mutter, etc).

There are obviously people unhappy with wayland because it has issues with accessibility or automation or other more niche use cases. As hard as it may be, I think the time would be better spent solving these issues in wayland instead. If it cant be solved upstream, downstream protocols like the wlr-protocols can be an option. In fact, even upstream, ext-namespace protocols only require 2 ACKs which shouldn't be too hard to get especially once more wayland compositors join upstream development.

This starts to impact the entire stack as toolkits, mesa drivers, etc. are increasingly developed with Wayland in mind and are simply better tested there. IMO wayback is probably a more fruitful investment than an x11 fork for those who want to run traditional X11 DEs.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#79

Post by komali2 »

tosti wrote: post #55
gchamonlive wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think like this because you have the privilege of not being affected by discrimination. It's not enough to "not be a racist". You are being downvoted because of this, and thinking everyone but you is immature for this conversation just highlights this.

I literally didn't get a job last week because I'm white and have a common white surname. They didn't ask anything technical at all.

This beggars belief, can you expand?

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#80

Post by mort96 »

amiga386 wrote: post #73
mort96 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I see in freedesktop is a loose association of people trying to make the best libre display server ecosystem they know how to make, and they've collectively come to the conclusion that they're able to make better software by starting from scratch than by patching away at the X11 code base from the 80s. And otherwise it's just a boring standardization committee for protocols. It sounds like you're seeing somethin…

I think, rather, they've collectively come to the conclusion that brownfield development sucks and greenfield development rules. Which is true, if you're a voluntary developer. It's so much fun to play in new developments, and be involved in making history (that some other sucker will maintain in future) rather than maintaining someone else's past glories. Unfortunately, this means for third-party developers and user…

It seems like you're mixing up your dislike for some of the technical decisions made in Wayland (some of which I share, FWIW) with some weird conspiracy theory about how Freedesktop's main mission is to argue with developers.
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