Live data from Hacker News

Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

nbcnews.com

381–390 of 914 posts

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#381
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, and the US system is the envy of the world and is responsible for the overwhelming majority of wealth generated in the US over the past few decades The benefits of the U.S. university system aren’t generated by average people taking a debt-financed 4 year vacation. They are generated by the same subset of people who would still be attending university even in a scaled down system that sent far fewer people to…

In your view the benefits of university are that rich people go there? Did I somehow completely misunderstand?

It’s unpopular to say, but a disproportionate amount of value is of course derived from people who are both educated and have immediate access to resources to fully exploit that education as well as the risk tolerance to innovate in the process, and the social status to build strong trust and social bonds with other similarly prepared people…so although it pains me to say it, yes?

It is certainly plausible that the most benefit to society comes from people that are both educated and empowered.

Whether the cost of that empowerment > the burden outsourced to society, well, that is another discussion.

Perhaps more on point, because I definitely think we can find examples of this in practice, it’s perhaps more truthy and also more actionable to say that college provides its optimal outcomes when it serves people who have intrinsic gifts that are empowered by knowledge. Sometimes these gifts are resources, but often these gifts are cognitive brilliance. Either one is like oxidiser for the fuel of knowledge, but especially brilliance when given resources.

I’m pretty sure that for the majority of college graduates, aside from its social signalling value, the amount of their secondary education that directly benefits them in their life could fit in a couple of years of summer school or a year of community college.

A quarter million dollars in debt is a tragic price to pay for a couple thousand dollars of educational utility. A system that requires a social signal 100x more costly than the value it represents is externalising that cost onto everyone, and the only benefits flow to financiers and the moneyed class.

Aside from educational titles (as opposed to capabilities) society is generally sensible regarding the cost of symbols vs the reality they facade.

We recognise the ridiculousness of people owing $90,000 for a truck when they live in a dilapidated trailer on a rented lot. We understand that a man who lives hand to mouth but wears a half of kilogram of gold around his neck is probably not making the best life decisions. We ridicule the faux-intellectual with their ridiculously stilted props. But somehow, we are convinced to dress up our children like heirs to the crown and send them to finishing school for their jobs in retail. It’s a profound mis-investment.

It’s also worth noting that it is way more expensive to provide an education to the intellectual proles than it is to educate brilliant and hungry minds. We are shovelling money (distilled human effort) into a furnace of misery in the service of vanity.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#382
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing this story. You seriously dropped out because you didn't like one class? That doesn't seem to show much fortitude. Which university, which year was this, what was your major, and what happened with your education and/or career after you dropped out? And what precisely do you mean by "castigated," in your specific case?

> You seriously dropped out because you didn't like one class? No. The university added other "studies" courses to my requirements that contributed to my decision. After taking gender studies, I knew I could not tolerate the other "studies" courses the university was suddenly demanding—which were not required when I first started. > Which university The University of Utah > which year was this 2014 > what was your ma…

> One of our guest speakers was a man with autogynephilia—a man who derives sexual pleasure from dressing like a woman.

> In a follow-up discussion, I committed the "sins" of referring to him as a man, and saying things like he is not a woman, and there are only two sexes.

Now I definitely agree with the other poster that this sounds made up, or at the very least you are significantly embellishing the story in such a way to completely ruin your own credibility.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation-only is sloppy analysis. The inheritors and descendants of those that directly created the problem are screaming at the colleges as the problem. But that’s ass backwards: Create the long-term financial opportunity and the college problem will disappear overnight. The correlation is because rational actors will follow the only leads available to make money, survive, and raise a family. Edit: I edited the t…

> The inheritors and descendants of those that directly created the problem are screaming at the colleges as the problem Not to mention rank-and-file American conservatives who see universities as bastions of liberal thought/power, and create threadbare, post-hoc arguments as to why universities have to be dismantled or politically reeducated when partisanship has to be disguised.

> when partisanship has to be disguised.

The conservatives are right about the partisan bias of universities. See this survey by Mitchell Langbert.

https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/31/2/homogenous_the_p...

Anthropology and communications saw no registered Republicans. English, Sociology, and Art departments had a ratio of around 40:1 Democrat professors Republican professors, whereas in technical fields the ratio drops considerably to only 1.6:1 in engineering, and around 5:1 for economics, chemistry, and mathematics.

Langbert notes:

> The political registration of full-time, Ph.D.-holding professors in top-tier liberal arts colleges is overwhelmingly Democratic. Indeed, faculty political affiliations at 39 percent of the colleges in my sample are Republican free—having zero Republicans.

Duke: https://dukechronicle.com/article/duke-university-faculty-su...

> When asked for their political identities on a scale of “very liberal” to “very conservative,” 23.2% of respondents identified as “very liberal,” 38.53% identified as “somewhat liberal,” 24.48% identified as moderates or centrists, 9.92% identified as “somewhat conservative” and 3.87% identified as “very conservative.”

Yale: https://buckleyinstitute.com/faculty-political-diversity-rep...

> Across 14 departments in the Social Sciences and Humanities, the report identified 312 Democrat faculty (88%) and only 4 Republicans (1.1%), a ratio of around 78 to 1.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#384
Polls really need to start adding filter questions like "Do vaccines work?" "Did humans evolve from small mammals?" because some people not believing something works is actually a positive signal.

Are there problems in Higher Ed? Almost certainly. Are changes to the situation driven by the "vaccines don't work crowd" likely to make things even worse for everyone? Oh yes.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not sustainable to sell a product that most people only buy because they were trying to buy something else (or because they're forced to for societal reasons). Like a car in the United States, outside of perhaps five metro areas?

What do you suggest people were trying to buy, instead of cars?

The post is saying that you are forced to buy a car everywhere except five metro areas.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#386

Employers just hire experienced h1bs instead, they won’t leave after being trained, no reason to hire an American

Oh good, I was worried this thread wouldn't have any anti-immigrant sentiment.

When immigration is a leading factor on why the modern college graduate has less marketability in the workforce, leading them to believe the ROI on their degree is not worth it compared to generations past, you really should have expected it.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#388

The downward "is it worth it" trend over the last 12 years is partly due to the continued upward climb of college tuition. Some schools are now at $100,000/yr for tuition, room, and board. In order for this to be "worth the cost" they would have to have a strongly positive expected value in terms of future earnings. And a positive EV isn't sufficient. It would also need to have a very low chance of negative EV. Other…

There's a simple and effective escape hatch: study abroad. Europe, Australia, South America, Canada even. Some countries are more affordable than others but the most expensive (by far) option is staying in the US. From the point of view of developing your brain, leaving your country is a free education in itself. There is also the effect of embedding yourself in a network of expats made up of the best and brightest f…

I can vouch for studying abroad. But can you get loans and scholarships for it as easily as studying at home? Even if the university is free you must pay for food and housing.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#389
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but if the US truly has the best military (and it does 100x) then when push comes to shove, the US will destroy anyone who tries to undermine it. Very dangerous game to oppose it. Being able to construct things quickly is important, but if the US can militarily seize nearly every country on earth in days, the power is not necessarily where the kit is located

The US military isn't that scary; the evidence to date is that it's ability to destroy counties ends somewhere around Iran's strength. The modelling I've seen is that any US-China war will take place in Asia and China will probably win it unless the US gets a lot of help (always possible). And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India and there isn't a lot they can do about it in the…

> And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India

With respect, Russia is being decimated (literally, at least the "big fortresses" that Russia has been gnawing at for months such as Pokrovsk have insane loss rates) by Ukraine's army who are mostly using donated shoddy Soviet-era remainders and decades old Western surplus.

If the US were to wage actual war with modern technology against either Russia or China (whose arms are based off of Soviet designs and stolen American plans), there is no chance in hell either would be able to do much against the US.

India is different but they're at least a democracy that's reasonably worth calling it that (despite Modi doing his best to dismantle it). I don't see any attempts of India to project power anywhere other than in its immediate neighborhood (i.e. the border disputes with Pakistan and China). They're no threat.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#390

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

"People want cheap healthcare"

This has a lot to do with what a country wants. Many countries show this is possible; the USA prefers a profit-based system where everyone pays a lot.

Post reply on HN