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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#241

Post by wavemode »

collinmcnulty wrote: post #143
jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

This view seems to be common, but I think it misses what incredible alchemy comes from making people who come in for “job training” (like I did) spend 4 years in close proximity with research, academic freedom, liberal arts, and at least an attempt at some kind of intellectual idealism separate from economic incentive. It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well by having a middle c…

It's not sustainable to sell a product that most people only buy because they were trying to buy something else (or because they're forced to for societal reasons).

That sort of approach is exactly why "Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost" (as the title states)! People are wising up to the truth, and now it's harming the credibility of the system as a whole.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#242

Post by bombcar »

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #227

Reminiscent of this thread talking about undergraduate-level students mailing it in: https://bsky.app/profile/jesbattis.bsky.social/post/3m6pvvko... Is this not rational behavior? If, through grade inflation, the only thing that matters to an employer is what school you went to and that you completed it (the sheepskin effect), then isn't the correct optimization to reduce wasting time on levers that won't make any pr…

Completely unironically your best bet is to get into a good college, then do the minimum work needed to graduate and spend al the rest of the time networking (read: partying).

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#243

Post by crossbody »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #133
crossbody wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The students bear costs but no benefit to themselves? No higher wages? My point is that it doesn't matter in principle if one takes a loan and pays it down over time vs. one is taxed at much higher % and that tax "pays down" a phantom student loan of "free" education. It does introduce a risk and hence the incentive for loan takers to choose their degree wisely though. Which should lead to better allocation of labor…

> The students bear costs but no benefit to themselves? No higher wages? Nobody said the student achieves no benefit. We keep saying that the student does not capture all the benefit of their own education in higher wages, but bears the entire cost.

That's also true for entrepreneurs, right?

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#244

Post by mjevans »

nradov wrote: post #129
lotsofpulp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. Healthcare costs, and hence health insurance premiums, are the same with or without an employer intermediary. The only difference is with an employer intermediary, the insured gets to pay their premium with pre-tax income. The cost of the health insurance…

Right, the federal tax code is structured to give advantages to employer sponsored health plans. But it doesn't have to be that way. A better approach would be to eliminate those plans and force everyone to purchase individual or family plans through state ACA marketplaces using pre-tax dollars.

Or, just provide 'basic healthcare' as a human right (and service for being taxed) and make ALL plans on top of that luxury services.

Wouldn't you like to STOP the insanity of "picking" a plan every year (or more) and also end the billing nightmare by just making it all single payer (the government of the people, for the people)?

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#245

Post by Beijinger »

fragmede wrote: post #82
Beijinger wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the Downvote? It is true.

what does it add to the conversation? The fact that incoming UCSD freshman cannot solve the problem is being brought up as a failure. That this six year old can solve it does nothing to address the issue of UCSD students being unable to solve a problem that we all expect them to. It it as if you are a stoichastic parrot, bringing up a fact that, yes, it happens to be true, because it is nearby on some vector space. H…

What do you do add to the discussion?

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#246

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

wavemode wrote: post #241
collinmcnulty wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This view seems to be common, but I think it misses what incredible alchemy comes from making people who come in for “job training” (like I did) spend 4 years in close proximity with research, academic freedom, liberal arts, and at least an attempt at some kind of intellectual idealism separate from economic incentive. It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well by having a middle c…

It's not sustainable to sell a product that most people only buy because they were trying to buy something else (or because they're forced to for societal reasons). That sort of approach is exactly why "Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost" (as the title states)! People are wising up to the truth, and now it's harming the credibility of the system as a whole.

Everything's a societal reason from some angle. We've probably tilted a bit too hard towards college as a universal path, but I think the median college-degree-required job would still tell you that they're trying to find people who value education and learning for its own sake. The best doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. are the intellectually curious ones who don't see education as a burden.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#247

Post by givemeethekeys »

alephnerd wrote: post #231
blitz_skull wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming a grad income of $80k is an insane starting assumption. MAYBE you’re making that in software (good luck getting your foot in the door). Any other industry? Biology? Social sciences? Academia? Manufacturing? I struggle to think of anything other than finance that has a shot of STARTING at $80k. Hell I didn’t hit $80k in software industry until ~3 years in and I thought I was (I indeed WAS) very lucky.

Your numbers seem to be a couple years out of date, or maybe you're (no offense) living in an economic backwater like Florida where salaries are severely depressed due to the tourism effect. The base salaries for Entry level SWE roles are in the $80k-100k range nationally [0]. Additionally, most finance roles start in that ranges, though high finance has starting salaries comparable to Big Tech new grad. Even Biotech…

> like Florida

If Florida is "backwater", then so is most of the rest of the country outside of a handful of overpriced cities where earning 80k is required to be able to afford a room in an apartment - not the whole apartment, and certainly not buying one.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#248

Post by alephnerd »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #247
alephnerd wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your numbers seem to be a couple years out of date, or maybe you're (no offense) living in an economic backwater like Florida where salaries are severely depressed due to the tourism effect. The base salaries for Entry level SWE roles are in the $80k-100k range nationally [0]. Additionally, most finance roles start in that ranges, though high finance has starting salaries comparable to Big Tech new grad. Even Biotech…

> like Florida If Florida is "backwater", then so is most of the rest of the country outside of a handful of overpriced cities where earning 80k is required to be able to afford a room in an apartment - not the whole apartment, and certainly not buying one.

I mean yea, they absolutely are economically speaking - especially when looking at where new grad college educated jobs are located [0].

Heck, most states have fallen into a technical recession [1]. Florida is weird simply because of how much tourism and retirement adjacent industries skew it's economy (eg. Elderly care, primary care, etc) - in fact, healthcare services (as in elderly care, hospice care, and homecare) is the only non-skilled industry that is seeing a significant expansion in the US.

I personally along with HN, other VCs, and PE funds have been actively following the MSO space for a couple years now because of this boom.

And I say this as someone who kinda likes Florida (Dr Philips reminds me and moreso the missus of bougie gated communities back in ASEAN - it's a nice place for us to Fat FIRE).

[0] - https://www.axios.com/local/denver/2025/02/28/white-collar-w...

[1] - https://www.ft.com/content/e9be3e3f-2efe-42f7-b2d2-8ab3efea2...

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#249

Post by crossbody »

xethos wrote: post #217
crossbody wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I overlooked that. I think that's fair that risk should be more spread. Comes at a cost of people choosing degrees more frivolously though and wasting their time and everyone's money

I'd like to push back on "useless" degrees here, as well. The idea that degrees that leave graduates struggling to pay their bills (especially with student loans factored in) are worse than degrees that maximize income is bad for society. Not every job that is good for society pays well - if they did, educators would be better paid, and many executives would not be compensated as well as they are. Some degrees are le…

The pay is determined by supply and demand, apparently there is a relatively large supply of educators (many just enjoy it despite low pay) relative to the demand.

I see your point on broader benefits, however, those are largely speculative while a shortage of e.g. doctors has very direct and concrete costs to the society.

On prior point regarding spreading risks - would you say government should bail out failed entrepreneurs? Because that is very similar in principle (taking risk, benefit for society)

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#250

Post by crossbody »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #169
btilly wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you break down how budgets have changed, the two biggest drivers of tuition increases are the growth of administration, and fancy amenities like sports facilities. The cost of the person in front of the blackboard has not been increasing.

The cost of the person in front of the blackboard has been steadily going down; those people have been complaining about this for decades.

Ok, the prior link was comparing it to EU though, so perhaps costs for professors there went down even more, as professors make less there compared to US
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