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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many (most?) people go to college primarily for the piece of paper, not for the educational and social experience.

You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost too. Nearly all of Europe does, I believe.

Did Europe find a cheat code that gets free $$$ for education?

Nothing is free - once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over.

Not saying education should not be subsidized via taxes (I think it's good overall), but it's not free at all - the price is just hidden and spread out over many years (similar to student loans but less visible).

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#52
post #36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does your (dubious) example have to do with the quality of post-secondary education? If it has any relevance, it's for the quality of secondary education.

If a university's administration overlooks a complete failure of the student selection process, it's easy to imagine that it may well overlook a complete failure of the professor selection process. The price of admission is also way too steep to wind up being the peer of mental 8th graders.

Is it a failure of the process? The selection process is to pick people who willing to pay, not who can solve equations.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would you go to grade school and high school at institutions that produce graduates like that? Do you not know how U.S. K-12 public schools are funded by local property taxes, which means the quality of a child's education is a direct causal relationship of the wealth of their neighborhood? Why don't these children just grow up in richer neighborhoods?

Do you not know that the US is a Federal system and there are (at minimum) 50 different ways that schools are funded? California's schools (for instance) aren't funded by local taxes, they're funded by the state and allocated funding based on a formula[1] of performance, need, population, etc. They can be augmented by local taxes, but in practice that's rare as the wealthy just avoid the system altogether; instead, o…

Equity remains a valid criticism of LCFF in California specifically.

For one unremarkable observation in this area, see the following think tank report:

> States often commission cost studies to establish the level of funding required to help students meet state standards. LPI analyzed five of the more recent of these studies [...] All of these studies recommended additional weighted funding to support English learners and students considered "at-risk," which was most often defined by a measure of family income and also included other factors [...] The recommended weights for English learners in these studies ranged from 15% to 40% of the base grant level in each state. The recommended weights for at-risk students ranged from 30% to 81%. Compared to the recommended funding in these states, the LCFF’s supplemental grant weight of 20% is at the lower end of the recommended range of weights for English learners and below the range of weights for at-risk students.

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED670929.pdf

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#54

Most of you here assume the "Human Capital" model (i.e. you pay to acquire skills), but that entirely misses the actual point of a college degree! 2001 Nobel Prize went for demonstrating that college is basically a quarter million dollar IQ and Marshmallow Test. It's a filtering mechanism that allows employers to tell who is smart and conscientious enough to be productive at work. Offering education to more and more…

Those degrees also don't lead to the jobs they want. My former boss would hire people with degrees in, to do basic admin tasks. I quit because a they hired a guy to be my manager, with a lawyer degree and paid him $20k more than me, to do the same job. But he would spend the whole day on his phone. I'm in a new job, hiring people, and I'm not looking at degrees when it's for a dispatch role.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#55

As the article says, this change in opinion has been very big and very recent. Don't expect universities to sit still and do nothing. I see several possible reactions. One is to do what Georgia Tech and U Texas are doing -- to offer online degrees for MUCH reduced cost, like $10k. Will such 30 credit MS degree programs (that don't require BS first) replace 120 credit BS degrees? That makes a lot of sense to me. The p…

> Don't expect universities to sit still and do nothing.

> The popularity of residential degree programs may be ending, due to insanely high cost.

I think the problem is that universities _have_ been changing in the direction of _delivering less_ at the same time that they cost more. The article cites public schools doubling tuition in inflation-adjusted terms since 1995, but simultaneously:

- student-faulty ratios have gotten worse

- schools use under-paid adjuncts for a larger share of classes

- good schools often trade on the research record of faculty, but the success of those prominent faculty often mean they can get course buyouts / releases, so they're not teaching anyway

- much has been published about administrative bloat in universities but for example see 2010 vs 2021 numbers here https://www.usnews.com/education/articles/one-culprit-in-ris...

Rather than trying to make new online offerings, I think schools need to lean out their staff, and cut back on programs that don't have to do with instruction. Even better would be if federal funding eligibility was tied to schools demonstrating that at least X% of their budget goes to instruction, where that X should ratchet up over time.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost too. Nearly all of Europe does, I believe.

Did Europe find a cheat code that gets free $$$ for education? Nothing is free - once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over. Not saying education should not be subsidized via taxes (I think it's good overall), but it's not free at all - the price is just hidden and spread out over many years (similar to student loans but less visible).

Was it much more subsidized in the US when it was much cheaper, though?

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#57
I’d feel better about not recommending college for everybody if our high schools were more rigorous. I personally feel that the Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate curricula should be the minimum for high schoolers to graduate, since an education at this level provides well-rounded knowledge that gives students the skills necessary to survive in a 21st-century developed economy.

However, many high school students don’t have the opportunity to take such classes, and there are also many high school students who struggled in elementary and middle school.

I was a high school student in California during the first half of the 2000s. California used to have the High School Exit Exam, which was mandatory to graduate from high school. The test focused on English grammar, reading comprehension, and algebra. I took the exam in 10th grade, and I felt it was easy. So easy, in fact, that I believed eighth graders shouldn’t have much difficulty passing the exam.

However, there were many students who weren’t able to pass the exam, even with multiple attempts. Eventually the state got rid of the test. I don’t know if educational outcomes improved in the immediate aftermath, but UC San Diego’s study on remedial math shows that our high schools are inadequate at preparing students not only for college, but for life in our modern economy.

Of course, to fix high schools, we also need to fix our elementary and middle schools. This goes beyond the classroom; this also involves addressing the cost-of-living crisis. It’s hard for kids to thrive in school when they have parents who need to work heroic hours to make ends meet, and this doesn’t include the kids who have to deal with homelessness and other unstable living situations.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My roommate can solve this. And he just turned 6. I gave him today some equations with two unknowns....

Why the Downvote? It is true.

It may come across as bragging to some. You can decide if that is fair.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the Downvote? It is true.

It's due to your username; they think you're a troll.

Well. I love Beijing. But I am not Chinese, nor do I currently live in China. Unfortunately.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the Downvote? It is true.

It may come across as bragging to some. You can decide if that is fair.

Well, if someone feels extremely inferior, true.

Many mothers claim their child is gifted. In this case, I believe it. It is not my son, unfortunately. I am just in a roommate situation.

I give him math challenges sometimes. Today I started introducing equations with 2 unknowns.

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