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The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

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Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#11

Post by dangus »

The problem that UBI will never get over is the fact that it just smells like something suspicious. It smells like something capitalists can exploit.

Landlords and other oligopolistic goods-sellers with a lot of leverage and cartel-like dynamics can now count on a base income for everyone. I don’t see how low income housing doesn’t instantly becomes more expensive across the board, with profits funneled to established landlords.

At least with SNAP/EBT, your landlord can’t take that money.

UBI is sold as a cheap program to run because it eliminates the application and verification processes involved with existing benefits programs. But those same concepts could be applied to existing programs.

Other pro-worker reforms could also replace the whole UBI idea, where UBI just feels like a band-aid for a society with worsening income inequality and increasing corporate control. It has a “fix the symptom” vibe.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#13

Post by appreciatorBus »

TheCleric wrote: post #2

I think this goes to something I’ve been seeing a lot of lately. People will hold an opinion for emotional reasons instead of logical reasons, and those speaking to them will get frustrated trying to “logic” them out of it (evidence, studies, facts, etc). It doesn’t work because they came to the opinion first and veneered it with logic afterwards. If you tear down the logic, the emotional substructure is still there.…

IMO this describes the author of the article. They have an emotional discomfort with various inequities & inequalities which drive their advocacy of UBI & other measures and they aren't interested reason, arguments or logic. The guy has been obsessed with UBI since he was 15, no one is going to talk him out of it, no matter how bad the evidence is.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#14

Post by AnimalMuppet »

TheCleric wrote: post #2

I think this goes to something I’ve been seeing a lot of lately. People will hold an opinion for emotional reasons instead of logical reasons, and those speaking to them will get frustrated trying to “logic” them out of it (evidence, studies, facts, etc). It doesn’t work because they came to the opinion first and veneered it with logic afterwards. If you tear down the logic, the emotional substructure is still there.…

I had a friend who was a Christian evangelist to cult members. He said that they would be a cult member as long as they wanted to be a cult member. The only way was to move them to the place where they didn't want to be in the cult anymore.

The way he did it was to preach their cult's doctrine to them. "OK, according to your church's teaching, here's the requirements for you to be saved. How are you doing? Are you going to make it? How much harder are you going to have to work in order to make it? Will even working harder be enough to get you there?" When the weight of what their belief system actually demanded of them sunk in, some of them didn't want to be in the cult anymore.

Some of them. A few. Not many. But some.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#15

Post by jclulow »

dangus wrote: post #11

The problem that UBI will never get over is the fact that it just smells like something suspicious. It smells like something capitalists can exploit. Landlords and other oligopolistic goods-sellers with a lot of leverage and cartel-like dynamics can now count on a base income for everyone. I don’t see how low income housing doesn’t instantly becomes more expensive across the board, with profits funneled to establishe…

As opposed to all the regular kinds of shitty behaviour landlords inflict on their tenants already? I feel like "because the money people will continue to misbehave" is absolutely not a reason to avoid doing something.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#16

Post by 89756539864 »

dangus wrote: post #9
exabrial wrote: post #3

How do I opt out of a ubi, where I can keep everything I [rightfully] earned?

When you pay the government to ensure that its citizens aren’t in desperate poverty you are also getting the service in return where you aren’t getting violently mugged and robbed all the time. If every American was forced by some kind of mandatory conscription to spend a percentage of their life living in the poorest neighborhoods in America they’d probably become pro-social safety net pretty quick.

Your service sounds like a mafia protection racket.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#18

Post by travisb »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #12
stevenalowe wrote: post #8

What happens if nobody works and how will we afford it are absolutely valid questions. A sovereign fund might answer both

> nobody works That isn’t behavior that occurred in the pilot problems they talk about it.

All the participants in those pilot programs *know* they are in a time-limited pilot programs and that in a handful of years the money will dry up. This is a major flaw in all UBI studies which make them all but useless.

It will take 15 or 20 years before any UBI could be considered permanent enough for a majority of people to change their work habits.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#20

Post by gruez »

stevenalowe wrote: post #8

What happens if nobody works and how will we afford it are absolutely valid questions. A sovereign fund might answer both

>A sovereign fund might answer both

Barring AGI and a swarm of drones/nanobots, you still need people to work. Money is just a unit of exchange. If everyone on earth has a billion dollars, but nobody wants to work, nobody is going to be driving around in lambos.

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