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Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

ziglang.org

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Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#691

Post by simianwords »

pyrale wrote: post #577
mmaunder wrote: post #208

They've abandoned GitHub for Codeberg because GitHub has ICE as a customer. Codeberg uses Paypal which is a member of the ICE "Virtual Global Taskforce". https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/top-story-industry-partner... There is a purity spiral that organizations can enter when they start doing this, which ends up with you shoving yourself into a cold dark corner of the internet and still not being completely detached…

> There is a purity spiral that organizations can enter when they start doing this You are the one summoning that spiral by making a cheap gotcha wrt codeberg using Paypal. The project apparently could and did move because the swith from github to codeberg wasn't that big of an impact, and because, while the new forge is not perfect, they feel the association is less severe. There is no "purity spiral" in that, just…

As I was reading your reply I was half convinced that it was not purity spiral but by the end, even you admit it’s an ethics thing so yeah it is pretty much purity spiral in place. Next they will leave the USA so that they won’t be associated with Trump.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#692

Post by alexrp »

nromiun wrote: post #139

So much vague outrage over nothing. That CI system created by so called monkeys is the one of the best free CI service in the world. Not everyone has the millions of dollars like Zig Foundation to create their own CI servers. After that they appreciate GitHub Sponsors, but say it is now a complete liability just because a project leader left. What are the actual changes? Any new rule? But no, it is now a "liability"…

> So much vague outrage over nothing.

So you just chose to ignore the technical problems we have with GitHub Actions and then say there are no problems. That's certainly a take.

> That CI system created by so called monkeys is the one of the best free CI service in the world.

We self-host all our CI machines so the "free" hosted runners have no relevance here.

> Not everyone has the millions of dollars like Zig Foundation to create their own CI servers.

We don't have "millions of dollars". If only!

I'd also note that we spend our money very efficiently; most of our CI machines are consumer-grade hardware hosted in team member's homes. We don't just throw endless amounts of money at cloud providers.

> After that they appreciate GitHub Sponsors, but say it is now a complete liability just because a project leader left. What are the actual changes? Any new rule? But no, it is now a "liability" and we should accept it.

GitHub Sponsors is a liability because Microsoft can increase their cut at any time, or even axe it outright if they don't think it's profitable for them anymore. This risk is very real considering that, as Andrew pointed out, the feature has been neglected for years. It is objectively less risky for us to have donors use a platform like Every.org.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#693

Post by SoftTalker »

throw10920 wrote: post #639
brodo wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this kind of behaviour is a red flag for people who actually go digging through the GitHub profile. Like techical people in the last stages of a hiring process.

Is this aspirational or anecdotal, or is this what technical people in FANNG/tech actually do? I hope it's true but it strikes me as the kind of thing that most technical people involved in the interview process would be too tired/overworked to do.

I agree. As a technical person who has been involved in hiring, I never looked at github. My evaluation of a candidate was based on how he/she answered questions in the interview, and my general sense of "could I work with this person every day." I had no spare time to go beyond that.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#694

Post by Gatherer3009 »

aadishv wrote: post #419
picafrost wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a weird take-away from the post, where the only time ICE is mentioned is > Putting aside GitHub’s relationship with ICE, and the rest of the article provides technical reasons.

I feel like that's the whole point of the OP. I agree with the overall post but mentioning the ICE relationship seems to detract from the main point. "I hate GitHub because X Y and Z features are bad" is a good reason to move away; "I hate GitHub because one of their thousands of enterprise customers does not align with my political views" is not, in my opinion. For the record, I do not support ICE

[flagged]

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#695

Post by Gatherer3009 »

MildlySerious wrote: post #579
aadishv wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that's the whole point of the OP. I agree with the overall post but mentioning the ICE relationship seems to detract from the main point. "I hate GitHub because X Y and Z features are bad" is a good reason to move away; "I hate GitHub because one of their thousands of enterprise customers does not align with my political views" is not, in my opinion. For the record, I do not support ICE

People protesting ICE do not do so out of political concern, but humanitarian concern. This seems like a minor nitpick as those two are intimately tangled up, but it matters to make the distinction. Standing up for others is not petty or self-serving and that's exactly what this sort of conflation can falsely imply.

[flagged]

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#696

Post by alexrp »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #600

The arguments seem... really weak ? They just linked to some random obscure bug and an obscure OS not being supported in containers (and I'd imagine solution being "just bring your own runner"). I have... questions about Zig leadership

> obscure OS not being supported

Believe it or not, there are platforms outside of the big 3.

The GitHub Actions runner does not work on FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and illumos, all of which are operating systems we either have existing support for, or intend to start supporting properly soon. (We already have FreeBSD CI; machines for the other 3 are arriving at my place tomorrow as it happens.)

And that's ignoring CPU architectures; the upstream GitHub Actions runner only supports x86 and aarch64. We had to maintain a fork that adds support for all the other architectures we care about such as riscv, loongarch, s390x, etc. We will also likely be adding mips64 and powerpc64 to the mix in the future.

Even IBM have to maintain an s390x fork because Microsoft can't even be bothered to accept PRs that add more platforms: https://github.com/uweigand/runner

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#697

Post by foldr »

LinXitoW wrote: post #516
raincole wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's painfully apparent how many think that being polite in your communication is more important than actually doing something So you want people to talk about actions, not manners. Great. > And don't even get me started with the people who come in here just to point out that Codeberg isn't perfect either. Except actions they did with Codeberg...? Sharing their experience about Codeberg isn't off-topic in a thread…

The fetish for "manners" has stood in the way of every single positive societal change. It's exactly what MLK meant with the white moderate favoring a negative peace over positive change: the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which i…

MLK was, of course, famous for hurling vitriolic personal insults at people he disagreed with.

You should really take a step back and consider if MLK’s struggle for racial equality is an appropriate point of comparison for an open source project deciding to change to a different CI provider.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#698

Post by Gatherer3009 »

kajika91 wrote: post #354

This is a very good move, using more open technology benefits everyone in the long run. Aside from the bitter words against Github (and I read comments here forgetting about the very real consequences with people lives like collaboration with ICE), using codeberg is using Forgejo : those technology are by us and for us. Unlike Github we can run our own if necessary and all the technology (actions and such) can be imp…

[dead]

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#699

Post by bhouston »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #629
quirino wrote: post #35

> As a bonus, we look forward to fewer violations (exhibit A, B, C) of our strict no LLM / no AI policy, Hilarious how the offender on "exhibit A" [1] is the same one from the other post that made the frontpage a couple of days ago [2]. [1] https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/25974 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46039274

My old rule about the difference between coding and software engineering: For coding, "it seems to work for me" is good enough. For software engineering, it's not. My new rule: For coding, you can use AI to write your code. For software engineering, you can't.

> For coding, you can use AI to write your code. For software engineering, you can't.

You can 100% use AI for software engineering. Just not by itself, you need to currently be quite engaged in the process to check it and redirect it.

But AI lowers the barrier to writing code and thus it brings people will less rigour to the field and they can do a lot of damage. But it isn't significantly different than programming languages made coding more accessible than assembly language - and I am sure that this also allowed more people to cause damage.

You can use any tools you want, but you have to be rigorous about it no matter the tool.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#700

Post by kibwen »

Sammi wrote: post #576
carlmr wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is advanced trolling at this point.

I'll one up you: at this point I'm becoming pretty sure that this is a person who actually hates LLMs, who is trying to poison the well by trying to give other people reasons to hate LLMs too.

I envy your optimism. The truth is that humans are generally stupider and more craven than you have apparently even begun to conceive.
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