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I don't care how well your "AI" works

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Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#91

Post by flir »

amrocha wrote: post #62
flir wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now apply that thinking to computers. Or levers. I've seen the argument that computers let us prop up and even scale governmental systems that would have long since collapsed under their own weight if they’d remained manual more than once. I'm not sure I buy it, but computation undoubtedly shapes society. The author does seem quite keen on computers, but they've been "getting rid of the free-willed human in the loop"…

It’s a good thing that there’s centuries of philosophy on that subject and the general consensus is that no, tools are not “neutral” and do shape the systems they interact with, sometimes against the will of those wielding these tools. See the nuclear bomb for an example.

I'm actually thinking of Marshall McLuhan. Maybe you're right, and tools aren't neutral. Does this mean that computation necessitates inequality? That's an uncomfortable conclusion for people who identify as hackers.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#92

Post by skydhash »

nullbyte808 wrote: post #13

As a crappy programmer I love AI! Right now I'm focusing on building up my Math knowledge, general CS knowledge and ML knowledge. In the future, knowing how to read code and understanding it may be more important than writing it. I think its amazing what giant vector matrices can do with a little code.

The thing about reading code and understanding is logical reasoning, which you can do by knowing the semantic of each tokens. But the semantics are not universal. You have the Turing Machine, the lambda calculus, horn clauses, etc… Then there are more abstractions (and new semantics) built on top of those.

Writing code is very easy if you know the solution and the semantics of the coding platform. But knowing the solution is a difficult task, even in a business settings where the difficulty are more communication issues. Knowing the semantics of the coding platform is also a difficult one, because you’ll probably be using others’ code and you’ll face the same communication issue (lack of documentation, erroneous documentation, etc…)

So being good at programming does not really means knowing code. It’s more about knowing how to bypass communication barriers to get the knowledge you need.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#93

Post by embedding-shape »

kalaksi wrote: post #71
embedding-shape wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Across ~10 jobs or so, mostly as a employee of 5-100 person companies, sometimes as a consultant, sometimes as a freelancer, but always with a comfy paycheck compared to any other career, and never as taxing (mental and physical) as the physical labor I did before I was a programmer, and that some of my peers are still doing. Of course, there is always exceptions, like programmers who need to hike to volcanos to setu…

Sure, it's mostly comfy and well-paid. But like with physical labor, there are jobs/projects that are easy and not as taxing, and jobs that are harder and more taxing (in this case mentally).

Yes, you'll end up in situations where peers/bosses/clients aren't the most pleasant, but compare that to any customer facing job, you'll quickly be able to shed those moments as countless people face those seldom situations on a daily basis. You can give it a try, work in a call center for a month, and you'll acquire more stress during that month than even the worst managed software project.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#94

Post by embedding-shape »

amrocha wrote: post #78
embedding-shape wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Definitely true in western Europe, and finding a job is extremely hard for the vast majority of non expert devs. I don't know what else to say except that hasn't been my experience personally, nor the experience of my acquaintances who've re-skilled to become programmers these last few years, in Western Europe.

Do you base your entire worldview purely on your own personal experience?

[flagged]

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#95

Post by lm28469 »

lynx97 wrote: post #53
andrepd wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You don't like $instance_of_X? You must want to get rid of all $X" has got to be one of the most intellectually lazy things you could say. You don't like leaded gasoline? You must want us to walk everywhere. Come on...

A tool is a tool. These AI critics sound to me like people who have hit their finger with a hammer, and now advocate against using them altogether. Yes, tech has always had two sides. Our "job" as humans is to pick the good parts, and avoid the bad. Nothing new, nothing exceptional.

> A tool is a tool. These AI critics sound to me like people who have hit their finger with a hammer, and now advocate against using them altogether.

Speaking of wonky analogies, have you considered that other people have access to these hammers and are aiming for your head ? And that some people might not want to be hit on the head by a hammer

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#96

Post by fennecfoxy »

skydhash wrote: post #66
rho4 wrote: post #23

And then there is the moderate position: Don't be the person refusing the use a calculator / PC / mobile phone / AI. Regularly give the new tool a chance and check if improvements are useful for specific tasks. And carry on with your life.

If a calculator gives me 5 when I do 2+2, I throw it away. If a PC crashes when I uses more than 20% of its soldered memory, i throw it away. If a mobile phone refuses to connect to a cellular tower, I get another one. What I want from my tools is reliability. Which is a spectrum, but LLMs are very much on the lower end.

Except it's more a case of "my phone won't teleport me to Hawaii sad faec lemme throw it out" than anything else.

There are plenty of people manufacturing their expectations around the capabilities of LLMs inside their heads for some reason. Sure there's marketing; but for individuals susceptible to marketing without engaging some neurons and fact checking, there's already not much hope.

Imagine refusing to drive a car in the 60s because they haven't reach 1kbhp yet. Ahaha.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#97

Post by embedding-shape »

zombot wrote: post #82
embedding-shape wrote: post #20

> And yeah, I get it. We programmers are currently living through the devaluation of our craft, in a way and rate we never anticipated possible. I'm a programmer, been coding professionally for 10 something years, and coding for myself longer than that. What are they talking about? What is this "devaluation"? I'm getting paid more than ever for a job I feel like I almost shouldn't get paid for (I'm just having fun),…

I'd love to live on the same planet you do.

Gained life experience is always possible, regardless of your age :) Give other professions a try, and see the difference for yourself.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#98

Post by roxolotl »

embedding-shape wrote: post #20

> And yeah, I get it. We programmers are currently living through the devaluation of our craft, in a way and rate we never anticipated possible. I'm a programmer, been coding professionally for 10 something years, and coding for myself longer than that. What are they talking about? What is this "devaluation"? I'm getting paid more than ever for a job I feel like I almost shouldn't get paid for (I'm just having fun),…

I came here to quote the same quote but with the opposite sentiment. If you look at the history of work, at least in the states, it’s a history of almost continual devaluation and automation. I’ve been assuming that my generation, entering the profession in the 2010s, will be the last where it’s a pathway to an upper middle class life. Just like the factory workers before us automation will come for those who do mostly repetitive tasks. Sure there will be well paid professional software devs in the future just as there are some well paid factory workers who mostly maintain machines. But the scale of the opportunity will be much smaller.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#99

Post by flir »

prmph wrote: post #69
flir wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now apply that thinking to computers. Or levers. I've seen the argument that computers let us prop up and even scale governmental systems that would have long since collapsed under their own weight if they’d remained manual more than once. I'm not sure I buy it, but computation undoubtedly shapes society. The author does seem quite keen on computers, but they've been "getting rid of the free-willed human in the loop"…

Tools are not value neutral in any way. In my third world country, motorbikes, scooters, etc have exploded in popularity and use in the past decade. Many people riding these things have made the roads much more dangerous for all, but particularly for them. They keep dying by the hundreds per month, not only just due to the fact that they choose to ride them at all, but how they ride them: on busy high speed highways,…

> A motorbike wants to be ridden that way

That's a lovely example. But is the dangerous thing the bike, or the infrastructure, or the system that means you're late for work?

I completely get what you're saying. I was thinking of tools in the narrowest possible way - of the tool in isolation (I could use this gun as a doorstop). You're thinking of the tool's interface with its environment (in the real world nobody uses guns as doorstops). I can't deny that's the more useful way to think about tools ("computation undoubtedly shapes society").

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#100

Post by embedding-shape »

roxolotl wrote: post #98
embedding-shape wrote: post #20

> And yeah, I get it. We programmers are currently living through the devaluation of our craft, in a way and rate we never anticipated possible. I'm a programmer, been coding professionally for 10 something years, and coding for myself longer than that. What are they talking about? What is this "devaluation"? I'm getting paid more than ever for a job I feel like I almost shouldn't get paid for (I'm just having fun),…

I came here to quote the same quote but with the opposite sentiment. If you look at the history of work, at least in the states, it’s a history of almost continual devaluation and automation. I’ve been assuming that my generation, entering the profession in the 2010s, will be the last where it’s a pathway to an upper middle class life. Just like the factory workers before us automation will come for those who do most…

But in the end, we didn't end up with less factories that do more, we ended up with more factories that does more.

Why wouldn't the same happen here? Instead of these programmers jamming out boilerplate 24/7, why are they unable to improve their skill further and move with the rest of the industry, if that's needed? Just like other professions adopt to how society is shaped, why should programming be an exception to that?

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