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Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

bbc.com

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Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#381

Post by phantasmish »

brabel wrote: post #371
phantasmish wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s definitely something embarrassing going on, and it starts but does not end with confusing destruction of a state with destruction of… I’m not even sure what you had in mind. The land? The infrastructure? Taiwan’s democracy is absolutely threatened with destruction by a totalitarian superpower, that wasn’t in any way incorrect or misleading, and that’s how the GP post phrased it. Its state is threatened with d…

Where are you from? Did you know Taiwan is not recognized as a state independent of China by Europe, the USA, Japan and nearly every other country with the exception of 12 small countries? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries... You want it to be a state but your own country says it’s not one most likely. Stop embarrassing yourself.

The concept of “political fiction” exists and is important, yes, but we need not confuse it for reality.

[edit] I think I’ve used the wrong term here but I think I get the idea across. There are diplomatic lies maintained in many situations where everyone largely operates like it’s not true, and the situation with Taiwan is so quintessentially one of these that’s it’s a common first example to illustrate the point. In my defense it’s been a loooong time since my last international relations class.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#382

Post by TulliusCicero »

jack_tripper wrote: post #351
TulliusCicero wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan has been illegally building tiny military outposts throughout the sea to try and enforce its claims, like the PRC's doing? Because that's what I was talking about.

Who decides which military posts are legal and illegal? Then if it's decided it's illegal, who enforces that decision?

"Why's everyone scaremongering about China?"

*reasons given for China being an actual threat*

"Ah, but who's to say anything's illegal really, am I right??"

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#383

Post by thsajsadkj »

yanhangyhy wrote: post #23
Larrikin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiang Kai-shek is a standard part of the world history course in the US in high school. We know why China wants Taiwan at the personal level, much of the world is just interested in that not happening. It's a civil war like the American revolution was a civil war and France helped out.

This is the first time I've ever seen a non-Chinese person say it this way on Reddit, X, or this platform. I must have scrolled through way too much Reddit.

Reddit is the dumbest forum on the web, so id say yes!

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#384

Post by sofixa »

constantcrying wrote: post #344
sofixa wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> European wealth comes from exports That's certainly a claim. The EU market is pretty big, and has multiple avenues for growth (the whole of the Balkans is either in the EU but catching up, or outside the EU begging to be let in). It's not axiomatic that the EU needs to export to the whole rest of the world. And even if it is, there are plenty of countries that have an appetite for European goods for a variety of re…

You are still arguing the status quo. By export I meant export to countries outside the EU, where Chinese and European EVs compete fairly. To believe that the European car industry will survive purely on brand recognition is foolish and all current trends indicate otherwise. The Chinese are cars at the same quality for 70% if the price. That is obviously not sustainable and no amount of brand loyalty will overcome th…

> status quo

Yes, we're talking about the current reality and trends about the future. Which is it, are EU manufacturers at large on the decline, or am I too focused on the current reality that they're doing okay, with exceptions?

> Making worse cars at higher prices can not work.

Who is talking about worse cars or brand loyalty?

A Renault 5 or Renault 4 are objectively good cars that sell well based on their performance and looks. Cars aren't bought only on the basis on cost, which is why premium or even just any other brand other than the lowest cost Skoda or Dacia exist in the first place.

> None of your arguments seem convincing at all.

It's not very convincing to say that manufacturing in the EU is on a death bed when its double the % of GDP as in the US, and has multiple domains where there are good performances. And then get extremely hung up that EU manufacturers must export, and that somehow cost is the only metric by which people buy stuff. And then get extremely hung up on car manufacturing in particular. But also somehow that EU manufacturing is worse quality, which you don't even attempt to prove. Yeah, when you put down the wrong conditions, you're going to get the wrong conclusions. And repeating them again and again doesn't make them more convincing.

Most best selling EV models in the EU are Tesla, from Renault or VW Group. Practically all of them are manufactured in the EU. This is not a declining trend.

And of course you're completely ignoring the reality that tariffs against Chinese dumping are a reality and here to stay in many markets. Manufacturers that relied a lot on e.g. the Chinese car market, like VW, will suffer. Others that didn't, like Renault, are doing just fine.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#385

Post by octaane »

This, on the surface, makes logistical sense. Chitose (the proposed location) is the international airport for and largest airport in Hokkaido (New Chitose Airport). Setting up a fab and related facilities right next to this location would seem to have obvious benefits.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#386

Post by idiotsecant »

echelon wrote: post #358
indoordin0saur wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try and add something positive: Hokkaido seems like a great place to relocate and start a life for young aspiring workers. Homes are larger and quality of life has some advantages over the more densely populated parts of Japan. It's also very unique in terms of climate and geography: very heavy snows and mountains means there's limitless adventure for skiers and snowboarders. Yet, despite the snowy winters the w…

> Hokkaido seems like a great place to relocate and start a life for young aspiring workers. I taught English in Tokachi (Obihiro, Makubetsu-cho, Satsunai, Ikeda) a few decades ago and it was absolutely a dream. It's pristine farmland and country filled with crystal clear rivers and surrounded on all sides by snowcapped mountains. Fields that stretch forever. Hot springs. The freshest food. Fishing. Low cost of livin…

This is some good copy. I feel like you're selling me a timeshare or something.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#387

Post by octaane »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #209
numbers_guy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European countries are willing to make big bets. The issue is with incompetent leadership. For example they made very big bets on quantum computing and particle accelerators for HEP, both of which have close to zero ROI. Meanwhile, up till very recently AI was sneered at as not "scientific" enough. This is a problem with leadership. The issue is mostly that we put people in leadership positions, who are experts in pa…

non sense Google deepmind headquarter is located in Europe, US tech dominance just that good to attract talent all of europe You can see list of AI researcher that comes from europe+asia

Notably though, Deepmind is based in London, UK - not the EU.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#388

Post by idiotsecant »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #354
orochimaaru wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Japanese population trend is unsustainable with long term growth. Maybe they will find people to relocate to satisfy the labor needs? They're notoriously anti-immigration. So unless they have a growing labor pool that can sustain this it's going to be hard. In general, I think the US is looking for alternatives outside of Taiwan to build and operate fabs. Yes, there is a push to get them in the US as well. I'm un…

How much human labor is needed to run a semiconductor fab? This isn't exactly a new shipyard being announced. It seems like the perfect investment for an aging society, and might pay dividends in helping to support the automation of other industries. Japan also already supplies a lot of critical materials for semiconductor fabrication, and has a lot of experience in the sector. They also have a well-developed domesti…

It takes a fair amount of people. You have techs that keep the floor level stuff running, process engineers, maintenance techs and engineers, facilities, IT & automation people, logistics, quality assurance, management, admins. I bet you're talking more than a thousand people for a big facility.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#389

Post by alephnerd »

jack_tripper wrote: post #322
alephnerd wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring. Nothing stopped European nations like Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, etc from continuing to invest in domestic capacity 20 years ago, but most of their IP is now developed in American, Indian, or other Asian subsidiaries or JVs. Ju…

>Actively disrespecting other countries who worked hard on developing such capabilities and assuming European nations should be on the "big boys table" is what is so jarring. Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, as there was no disrespecting anyone there with my comment, and I basically agree with your point. That doesn't change that people here want those cutting edge manufacturing and job opportunities the US has…

> That doesn't change that people here want those cutting edge manufacturing and job opportunities the US has. They don't want to be stuck competition with China in commodity widgets like cars or low margin 16nm-65nm microcontrollers

You can't build an ecosystem for bleeding edge work without an even larger pipeline of non-bleeding edge and even legacy workflow. For example, it's 14nm that pays the bills for TSMC - not 5nm/7nm.

And much of the entire Taiwanese electronics industry is largely coalesced around legacy nodes and low value work as well.

> There's a limited market for ASML machines

Made in American using American IP by a US DoE JV.

> high bureaucracy, strong unions, private companies slowly moved jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper to do business, no unions, less environmentalism, less labor protections, etc

Yet European Biopharma and chemicals engineering remains competitive despite having similar issues as a similar capex heavy industry with a significant IP component. It's really just an institutional issue.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#390

Post by mrguyorama »

MangoToupe wrote: post #300
noduerme wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Perhaps you have an unusual opinion? That or a remarkably flexible sense of morality, coupled with a supine nature and a total lack of balls.

Let's not pretend it's ever moral to support the state you live under. You should support yourself and bide whatever state imposes itself on you.

It is usually morally correct to fight off literal tyrannical invasion, what are you on about?

Are you seriously suggesting it wasn't moral for the French to fight the Nazis or the people of Afghanistan to fight off the Soviets and Americans?

>You should support yourself and bide whatever state imposes itself on you.

Pathetic. Might as well go back to feudalism with that attitude.

It is not nationalism to want a sovereign nation that you have influence over, that's democracy.

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