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Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

bbc.com

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Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#341

Post by DeathArrow »

oblio wrote: post #269
constantcrying wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so grim. What a stark difference to Japan. On one side there is a government setting up a new company, with the aim of competing at the highest end of the most complex technological process in existence. Meanwhile the EU is setting up bureaucrat managed funds to keep the remaining companies, currently suffering from the decline of the German auto industry, alive. Oh and they also paid TSMC to set up a factory…

The EU can't really do anything. The EU is a loose confederation of countries that delegate responsibilities to this united body. Japan is a single country with a single government that can unilaterally decide what it wants to do.

But single countries in Europe can do something. If they choose to.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#342

Post by traceroute66 »

ricardobeat wrote: post #202
traceroute66 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe desperately needs to secure its own semi conductor supply chain. To be fair, Europe does have ASML which has something like 2/3 market share in DUV and almost monoplistic in EUV. The moat is enormous, so they are unlikely to face any serious competition for at least a decade if not more.

China is already catching up. They have a desktop-sized 14nm EUV machine, and Xiami is setting up a 3nm manufacturing line, both entirely with local tech. Thanks USA for the export ban.

> China is already catching up.

Sure of course, just like COMAC vs Airbus/Boeing, BYD vs Western EVs etc.

But this is a bit different IMHO.

First there's still a lot of catching-up to do.

And second are they going to be able to gain sufficient marketshare in the Western market ? I am thinking here, both in terms of displacing ASML and in terms of Western companies being willing to depend on Chinese tech for such critical activities.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#343

Post by alephnerd »

orochimaaru wrote: post #337
alephnerd wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unsure of why people in the EU seem disconcerted about this This is a top-level issue within Europe as well. When the Biden admin began the IRA, IIJA, and CHIPS ACT, France, Germany, and the entire EU began a massive lobbying campaign that verged into a trade war [0][1][2]. I went to school with a number of people who became senior EU and EU member state civil servants and leaders, and my college always hosted…

Engineering pay in the EU is bad. If that can be rectified then top talent would not move to the US. Also, US companies actively harness senior individual contributors. I don't think traditional EU companies have that. I think all the talk around regulations, taxes, etc. are a side show. Yes, there could be slightly looser labor laws. But when it comes down to it - money matters and Europe just doesn't pay. The same…

> Engineering pay in the EU is bad

Yes, but it is comparable to the pay received in Asia - especially peer developed countries like Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan.

The issues that have lead to laggard innovation in the EU outside of niches like Biopharma are institutional in nature.

> I think all the talk around regulations, taxes, etc. are a side show...

I disagree about this as someone who has first hand experience about this w/ regards to the American semiconductor industry. Having a single window to manage disputes, get answers within days instead of months, and tax subsidizes should decisions not be guaranteed in a timely manner help reduce risk for massive capex investments.

This is what EU member states like Denmark provide for the biopharma industry, and a similar template could have been used for semiconductors. The issue is, the talent density for large swathes of electronics and computer engineering just doesn't exist in the EU anymore.

It can be fixed, but egos need to be set aside and individual European states will have to adopt industrial policy strategies similar to those that developing countries adopted to build their own domestic industries.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#344

Post by constantcrying »

sofixa wrote: post #328
constantcrying wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>are killing it in them (best selling EV in the EU, Renault 5). What, if it's not a global behemoth dominating the world, it doesn't count as manufacturing? What exactly is your argument here? My argument is that China is producing EVs of the same quality for 70% of the cost. European wealth comes from exports . >This is assuming that the Chinese competition would be allowed to compete on the same terms, which we alr…

> European wealth comes from exports That's certainly a claim. The EU market is pretty big, and has multiple avenues for growth (the whole of the Balkans is either in the EU but catching up, or outside the EU begging to be let in). It's not axiomatic that the EU needs to export to the whole rest of the world. And even if it is, there are plenty of countries that have an appetite for European goods for a variety of re…

You are still arguing the status quo. By export I meant export to countries outside the EU, where Chinese and European EVs compete fairly.

To believe that the European car industry will survive purely on brand recognition is foolish and all current trends indicate otherwise. The Chinese are cars at the same quality for 70% if the price. That is obviously not sustainable and no amount of brand loyalty will overcome this.

None of your arguments seem convincing at all. Making worse cars at higher prices can not work. It is not a feasible long term strategy in any way.

Also, Stellantis is not selling well, they have huge problems with underutilized factories. Porsche is also currently in serious trouble.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#345

Post by ferguess_k »

HeinzStuckeIt wrote: post #63
jack_tripper wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's with all this scaremongering around China gonna invade everything anytime soon? How many wars has China started? In my lifetime I've only seen one major county besides Russia having a habbit of starting illegal wars whenever geopolitics doesn't go its way and it's not China.

The South China Morning Post itself recently wrote on speculation that Beijing could try to challenge Tokyo’s control of Okinawa, given its history and proximity to Taiwan.[0] [0] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3333468/ch...

This is to counter the claim of the Japanese PM that Japan might join in the war if China goes for Taiwan.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#346

Post by keepamovin »

koakuma-chan wrote: post #340
keepamovin wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. There's no clan that's blameless. All our current progress stands on a mountain of blood and death. Humanity is drenched in war. Is that all we can ever be?

Probably at some point there will be only one country?

What will it be called?

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#347

Post by keepamovin »

mikkupikku wrote: post #310
keepamovin wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more of a humorous take. We already have trouble with one chip nexus is right next to China, and now we build another one? "ha ha". We is humanity. The collective we probably doesn't want a lever of the future controlled by a totalitarian communist ehnostate. But yes, I agree Japan, Indonesia (as was intended), etc should wise up.

"We already have trouble with one chip nexus is right next to China, and now we build another one? "ha ha". We is humanity." Your "whole humanity 'We'" isn't who's investing in chip industry in Hokkaido. It's Japan.

But these things are done based on global supply chains. It's about more than just Japan, isn't it?

Same time, Japan clearly wants freedom to do things its own way. Good. It has the freedom. It just has to take it. Do it.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#349

Post by ecshafer »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #336
ecshafer wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has been dumping massive amounts of resources in this for at least 20 years, this (Making chips domestically with local tech) has been a long term goal for a very long time. The chip ban is relatively recent. IF it had an effect it was merely expediting a process that was going to happen regardless. China was NEVER going to be content importing Western chips or western machines to make chips indefinitely.

The EUV ban is not recent.

2019 is pretty recent. But it doesn't matter if the ban is 2000 or 2025. China was going to try and get the machines through subterfuge, industrial espionage, reverse engineering or novel engineering. They were always going to get a domestic chip production industry, its a matter of national security.

Re: Japan's gamble to turn island of Hokkaido into global chip hub

#350

Post by ferguess_k »

keepamovin wrote: post #233
RobotToaster wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pattern recognition over 3,000 years. Now do the same for the USA, UK, Japan, Italy, Turkey, etc.

Right. There's no clan that's blameless. All our current progress stands on a mountain of blood and death. Humanity is drenched in war. Is that all we can ever be?

Let's wait for some aliens. And then human apes can finally stop squabbling among themselves because they then realize how insignificant they are.

How about a fake alien reveal?

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