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After my dad died, we found the love letters

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Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#451
post #75

Ouch. This hits incredibly hard. I’ve been this dad who sits frozen at the TV every evening. I had the affairs with the emotionally unavailable men, and became one myself. Before you judge the man in this story too harshly — and there’s certainly much to judge, especially given the follow-up post — consider the environment he and I grew up in. Being gay as a young teenager in the early 1990s could feel literally like…

I see his actions as immoral (not as much as most violence) but could seem justified to a person in his circumstances with reasonable moral judgement. He grew up in a social environment where coming out as gay would make everyone around him sad and angry/ashamed at him. But he was gay, intrinsically. Eventually (possibly because of societal acceptance, possibly because he decided total suppression wasn’t worth it), h…

It is incredibly hard to judge actions taken in the past with a values system from the present.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#452
post #396
post #75

Ouch. This hits incredibly hard. I’ve been this dad who sits frozen at the TV every evening. I had the affairs with the emotionally unavailable men, and became one myself. Before you judge the man in this story too harshly — and there’s certainly much to judge, especially given the follow-up post — consider the environment he and I grew up in. Being gay as a young teenager in the early 1990s could feel literally like…

He placed duty, responsibility (family) above passion, choice (romance)- although not perfect, there should be some respect in that.

He did the best he could with the information he had at the time. Yes, it is sad, and it may even feel more a "selfish" life in many ways in a "modern" society. (I would say "Western" but that would include the retrograde, homophobic dictatorship the US is currently).

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your friend has a sugar baby and you feel awkward about it?

What is the defining feature of a sugar baby relationship? And what did I say about that earlier?

Gemini says it's "explicit financial or material exchange for companionship, intimacy, or other forms of attention." and I'm guessing because you haven't given us much to go on. Just trying to get something abstractly concrete to help answer your question:

> What would HN do?

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#454
post #385
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling up your wife's parents and telling them to scold her for wanting to divorce you IS ABUSE.

In Asian cultures this is pretty mellow. It would be far worse if you let her divorce you, typically. Divorced women in East Asian cultures (well, Asian generally) are not treated well. Not everyone works the same way.

So it was his responsibility to force her into the path that he believed was best for her?

That is a very toxic thing that people do in relationships all the time. It is used as a rationalization for prioritizing one's own desires.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Before you judge the man in this story too harshly" I will judge him harshly. Instead of getting a divorce, he emotionally abused his wide and child, which probably means therapy for the child for life. He's a selfish asshole, that doesn't think about anyone but himself. He also could have brought diseases back home to his wife (Just hearing the stories of his selfishness, he would have kept this hidden or not even…

At the end of the day it's about integrity. One of my relatives is an MtF transwoman now. Her wife was the first person she told about it, and they are still together, with a daughter. It was a little weird for me when I found out, but if her wife is OK with it, and they're providing a stable home for their daughter, I don't see an issue with it; not really my business. The issue is being dishonest, for decades. That…

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Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know the father never said he was gay? He may well have said that to the man he enjoyed dating as opposed to the wife whom he clearly didn't like very much.

> How do you know the father never said he was gay? I don't, which is why I didn't say that. I said: > as far as the essay mentions, the father never said he was gay.

The essay mentions the father being gay, reasonable to assume he said it. Unless you think he was bisexual, but I'm willing to bet you don't actually think that and this is just you being silly and you do actually think he's gay.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#457
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Asian cultures this is pretty mellow. It would be far worse if you let her divorce you, typically. Divorced women in East Asian cultures (well, Asian generally) are not treated well. Not everyone works the same way.

So it was his responsibility to force her into the path that he believed was best for her? That is a very toxic thing that people do in relationships all the time. It is used as a rationalization for prioritizing one's own desires.

Both of their parents certainly had that view, as does the wider society.

If you think that is very toxic, that is the tip of the iceberg.

To really put icing on the cake, they do it because they have plenty of examples of how badly people screw up their lives if someone isn’t doing that for them.

looks around at the opioid crisis in the west right now. Not that we would have anything like that going on.

There is no perfect, just different trade offs. And everyone usually cringes at the trade offs everyone else makes.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#458
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalization would not change the content at all, but would make it easier to read. People reading English have expectations are capitalization. Breaking those expectations makes the text more difficult to read and feel less effortless.

It’s a stylistic choice, it doesn’t have to cater to peoples expectations.

Sure, it doesn’t have to. But it will affect ease of reading for most readers who are accustomed to more “standard” written English.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#459
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They make scanning and reading text easier since they make jumping to the end/start of sentences easier. When you read your eyes are constantly jumping ahead and even backwards. The capital letters help you land quickly back at significant positions in the text since they are associated with boundaries in logical clauses.

If that were the point, why does English capitalize proper nouns? That would seem to complicate finding the start of a sentence. Besides, you have periods, exclamation points, and question marks at the ends of sentences anyway. In German even ordinary nouns are capitalized, making it even less easy to find the capital at the start of a sentence.

Because there is no perfect writing system and proper nouns are also significant and thus it’s a balance of the two needs.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I haven't presently read Wolf's essay on account of it being paywalled. However, I think I get the gist of it, and Scanlon's view too, from the abstract and some commentary.) I see good points from both Wolf and Scanlon, but I don't fully agree with either. To express myself crudely, I might say that I think "feelings" ("emotions") can be either rational or irrational. That is, logic and emotions are orthogonal conc…

Oh wow, thanks for engaging. You might really appreciate reading some of Bishop Butler's sermons, which are not pay walled. When I briefly studied Moral Psychology, I was taught that Butler is sort of the under-appreciated bedrock of Moral Psychology. His perspective is on the surface religious, which is perhaps why he is not considered among Locke and Hobbes as a foundational thinker of the Enlightenment. And yet hi…

Thank you for engaging. I'm having a good time talking with you.

Maybe I ought to read older texts more often...I do not fully understand what Butler means by terms such as "plain"! But that was a good read.

I do wonder which instances Butler imagines "sudden anger" to be useful in. I would think it rare that immediate action without consideration is good, but where it is good, I do not think the actor is acting in anger so much as he is acting in a justified instinct. It is probably more correct that the actor acts in anger when the action is bad. To be precise, I am talking about the actor's intention, whereas his action may turn out to be good or bad in that split-second. I don't believe that people should be judged on what occurs but only what they tried to do, while keeping in mind that "ideal intention" and "actual intention" are distinct (as good intentions pave the road to Hell!).

I do like how Butler described "deliberate anger" and its role in addressing wrongs committed unto people. I had to ponder what I myself meant when I brought up emotional-logic, because I have not understood it so well that I never confuse myself, but I suppose that is what Butler is describing: logic that addresses emotions, or allows emotions. In fact, if logic is not subservient to "cold-bloodedness", emotions are presumably a major component of the logic we perform every day, at some level or another.

I'm not religious, nor atheist or the like. I consider myself agnostic, but I think to be a proper agnostic one has to work to earn the title. Extending the notion of agnosticism to its logical conclusion, I find that we should all be agnostic in all matters: never professing knowledge to anything that we are ignorant of (which ultimately must be everything, because who knows anything nontrivial?). That's an extreme position, and would require a dense discussion, but it can be moderated to suit the circumstances. It suffices to say that, on momentous matters such as God, we must be ignorant. This doesn't preclude positing axioms, accepting them on faith, and performing logic, however. Indeed, we all require faith in some way or another. Anyways, I've found that freeing myself of the expectation of believing a certain way has helped me better appreciate all manner of religious, spiritual, mystic, etc. schools of thoughts. God is the greatest of the unknowable things, so any way we discuss Him shines light on some mode of life.

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