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After my dad died, we found the love letters

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Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#381

Post by gboss »

thunky wrote: post #272
quitit wrote: post #38

From reading both posts, there's a few things that come to my mind: - It seems this is how the author is processing her father's passing, and it's not really up to us to make moral calls on the content of the posts. They are thoughts with gaps of missing context against a real life of highs and lows which is not readily condensed into a blog post. - I'm peering into the life of a private person, that feels like a vio…

> I'm peering into the life of a private person, that feels like a violation. Even though they have passed, the people around them are very much alive. Absolutely. A person's right to privacy doesn't die with them.

It kind of does. They’re dead.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#382

Post by lordnacho »

fragmede wrote: post #329
lordnacho wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a "partner" who uses him for his wealth. No kids, and there won't be any, because I know how those are made and you have to do certain things that are not being done. When you talk to the guy, everything is great. Not even a sign that he has gotten hitched to this lady, or is dating, or that anything has happened at all. Yeah it's weird. I was incredulous when I was told.

So your friend has a sugar baby and you feel awkward about it?

What is the defining feature of a sugar baby relationship? And what did I say about that earlier?

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#383

Post by lazide »

caminante wrote: post #378
lazide wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being snarky at all. Mind actually saying something clearly? I’ve literally seen every one of the situations I described play out, without a gay person in sight. (Though only attempted murder, not successful) And notably, gay relationships of any gender don’t have a habit of getting anyone pregnant. The described situation in the article is pretty tame by ‘hidden/forbidden relationship’ standards. But then, I use…

It ties back to your use of "pragmatic", which I don't think applies. Your usage was off, imo. It sounds like we agree in general.

Suppressing what is going on tends to make things come out in even worse ways. If not suppressing it gets you murdered….

Not great. But could be worse, and it seems like it was done mindfully with minimal damage. That’s the pragmatic part.

He could have been hooking up with randos at clubs (dramatically higher disease risk), or worse, instead of what seems like a relatively stable (outside) relationship?

I’ve seen a lot worse. Not condoning, but the math seems obvious.

And his daughter may not like it, but she’s also literally only here because of it. So….

In most of the major Asian cultures, you have a very specifically shaped box to fit in. If you refuse to fit in it, you’ll be hammered on until you do. It’s not a great environment if you’re not box shaped. But society doesn’t particularly care - this was especially true 30+ years ago.

Some exceptions of course (Thai, some areas in big cities), but it’s largely still the case.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#384

Post by cortesoft »

noduerme wrote: post #58
quitit wrote: post #38

From reading both posts, there's a few things that come to my mind: - It seems this is how the author is processing her father's passing, and it's not really up to us to make moral calls on the content of the posts. They are thoughts with gaps of missing context against a real life of highs and lows which is not readily condensed into a blog post. - I'm peering into the life of a private person, that feels like a vio…

I agree with all of what you say, and while I thought the author was very good, I think calling him a coward was an unnecessary stroke of vanity and bitterness. For the same reason that no one can ever know what's inside another person's mind, much less a child understand their parents.

It is their own dad, they are allowed to be bitter.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#385

Post by lazide »

Drupon wrote: post #350
dpark wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Being selfish is not the same thing as abuse. People do selfish stuff all the time. It’s not abuse even if it’s shitty behavior. Abuse means more than that.

Calling up your wife's parents and telling them to scold her for wanting to divorce you IS ABUSE.

In Asian cultures this is pretty mellow.

It would be far worse if you let her divorce you, typically. Divorced women in East Asian cultures (well, Asian generally) are not treated well.

Not everyone works the same way.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#386

Post by cortesoft »

pfdietz wrote: post #142
ryanjshaw wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a big difference between changing and lying. I wouldn’t be happy if my spouse lied to me.

I wouldn't be happy either, but I'd be understanding. Everyone is human. Everyone lies, even to themselves.

Just because it is human doesn't mean you can't be hurt.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#387

Post by schneems »

candybar wrote: post #262
schneems wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think she's seeking one vs the other, nor is she judging him less now that she knows he's had a bunch of affairs. She's presenting a story and it's obvious that she has mixed feelings, full of both positive and negative judgement. It sounds like violently agree with everything other than my framing and wording choices. > I think you're misreading that last line. Maybe. I didn't notice it was a period and no…

> It sounds like violently agree with everything other than my framing and wording choices. No, you previously implied that the discovery of this information is somehow leading to less judgment and blame and more of an effort to understand. > The author seemingly had a lot of judgement and blame for the dad before finding this out. It sounds like they are seeking understanding If you read the story, it looks to me th…

> No, you previously implied that the discovery of this information is somehow leading to less judgment and blame and more of an effort to understand.

No

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#388

Post by mise_en_place »

billy99k wrote: post #211
pavlov wrote: post #75

Ouch. This hits incredibly hard. I’ve been this dad who sits frozen at the TV every evening. I had the affairs with the emotionally unavailable men, and became one myself. Before you judge the man in this story too harshly — and there’s certainly much to judge, especially given the follow-up post — consider the environment he and I grew up in. Being gay as a young teenager in the early 1990s could feel literally like…

"Before you judge the man in this story too harshly" I will judge him harshly. Instead of getting a divorce, he emotionally abused his wide and child, which probably means therapy for the child for life. He's a selfish asshole, that doesn't think about anyone but himself. He also could have brought diseases back home to his wife (Just hearing the stories of his selfishness, he would have kept this hidden or not even…

At the end of the day it's about integrity.

One of my relatives is an MtF transwoman now.

Her wife was the first person she told about it, and they are still together, with a daughter.

It was a little weird for me when I found out, but if her wife is OK with it, and they're providing a stable home for their daughter, I don't see an issue with it; not really my business.

The issue is being dishonest, for decades. That's the primary issue. There are always excuses, but living your life with integrity is of the utmost importance.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#389

Post by jjj123 »

gritten wrote: post #362
gwd wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's judging people, and there's judging actions. - Getting married under societal pressure even when you're pretty sure you're gay: I'm willing to cut him some slack on this. - Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife at risk of disease, but OK, you've been placed in a messed up, lose-lose situation. - Telling a lover you want to be exclusive, and getting him to move to a completely new country,…

>Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife at risk of disease, but OK In what world is this ever "OK"?

“OK” is an over-simplified word to use here. It’s incredibly complicated. And it changes with the era and location. If it’s illegal to be gay where you are, or if there literally is no societal understanding of gayness like in the 1700s or whatever where staying a single man is not always an option, I don’t think asking someone to be celibate their entire life is reasonable either. It’s still not _great_ but I don’t blame the individual as much as I do society.

Now, the 90s are a different time than the 1700s, and I do think it’s a bit selfish and myopic to think that having affairs in a marriage is your only option. But if I’m being honest, as an out gay person who strongly considered staying in the closet forever, I understand and can empathize.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#390

Post by johncolanduoni »

armada651 wrote: post #363
johncolanduoni wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people do deserve to be able to form emotional and sexual connections, and most people that are unable to in practice are not incels and deserve sympathy without complication. They’re victims, but only in the same sense that someone can be the victim of a hurricane. The important bit is that no person has a duty to be the one to provide those connections.

> They’re victims, but only in the same sense that someone can be the victim of a hurricane. What about those that can't form connections because of emotional abuse in their past? I wouldn't call them victims of a hurricane like it's some kind of unpreventable natural disaster. They're victims of their abusers and the people in their life that didn't intervene to stop the abuse.

That’s absolutely true - I was mostly trying to stake out a weaker claim against someone who seemed to think anyone who feels bad about the fact they can’t find sex is an unsympathetic incel. And I don’t think even the people who are lonely simply due to vague social trends like fewer tight-knit communities have an unpreventable problem at the societal level. It’s just there’s not an obvious perpetrator (pet theories about the causes of social decay non-withstanding).
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