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Being poor vs. being broke

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Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#721

Post by mattio »

justsomejew wrote: post #609
mattio wrote: post #325

I grew up poor as dirt. My mom has four kids with three dads. Eventually we were a family of six. I think we had about 100 euros a month for food, clothing and recreation. My mom and stepdad did not work one day in their lives (welfare in NL). Right now I’m still recovering. It’s my fifth year making over 150K and I have zero to show for it because I did a poor job managing my finances. To help me (in general, but al…

If you don't mind telling about it, who or what helped you?

I was just lucky that I started programming when I was about 32, and when I started freelancing (35) money started flowing. But tbh I am still managing the holes my upbringing left me (financial habits, attachment issues, focus and productivity). I know I’m responsible for my action, but it does not make it easier.

It kind of feels it’s never enough. So it does not feel I am helped in the sense that I left my problems behind me. Just traded some problems for better (but also bigger) ones.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#722

Post by tasuki »

dijit wrote: post #696
cryptonector wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds to me like you don't need income from labor. I'm not going to cry for you.

He’s indicated in a sibling thread that he’s not looking for sympathy. He’s trying to help you empathise that in reality these kinds of holes are really difficult to escape from; moreso than you think on first glance. It’s also very easy to fall into them even if you think you’re immune. Most people are about 2 bad decisions from poverty. In light of that, your response is just horrible.

Most people spend insane amounts of money on things they don't need to impress the people they don't like.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#723

Post by dijit »

tasuki wrote: post #722
dijit wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s indicated in a sibling thread that he’s not looking for sympathy. He’s trying to help you empathise that in reality these kinds of holes are really difficult to escape from; moreso than you think on first glance. It’s also very easy to fall into them even if you think you’re immune. Most people are about 2 bad decisions from poverty. In light of that, your response is just horrible.

Most people spend insane amounts of money on things they don't need to impress the people they don't like.

Two hypothesis:

1) The nature of interest in unsecured loans is high interest (almost by definition) and increasingly so if you are seen as a credit risk. Thus small debts compound over time making them unbearable for longer.

2) Our friend is merely Keeping up with the Jones’ despite never going above a zero balance.

One of these is uncharitable and ridiculous- the other is a known issue that keeps people in poverty.

I’ll let you figure out which.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#724

Post by abustamam »

habinero wrote: post #663
abustamam wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they really do make stupid decisions and cannot figure out things correctly Is this not the doom loop? People are poor because they don't know how to manage their money, and that keeps them poor. If it were common knowledge that payday loans were a scam / terrible financial decision then there wouldn't be a dozen in every poor neighborhood. Somewhat related is the newfound ability to finance absolutely everything,…

What an oblivious statement. Of course poor folks know how bad payday lenders are. They're poor, not stupid. They use them because they live on razor-thin margins and life happens. Poor folks generally manage their money down to the dollar. They have to, or they'll be out on the street. All of the things you mentioned are middle-class problems and have nothing to do with the horrific grind that is being poor.

Thanks for the correction.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#725

Post by seec »

abustamam wrote: post #657
seec wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping stuff around and refusing to fix things are not necessarily correlated to being poor. Both my parents have been in the top 15-10% income bracket, yet they pile up all kind of useless garbage, very often refuse to invest in proper stuff because "it's too expensive", always try to find ways to get things "cheaper" and will haggle artisans to get the cheapest job possible (and then complain when the work is done…

> they really do make stupid decisions and cannot figure out things correctly Is this not the doom loop? People are poor because they don't know how to manage their money, and that keeps them poor. If it were common knowledge that payday loans were a scam / terrible financial decision then there wouldn't be a dozen in every poor neighborhood. Somewhat related is the newfound ability to finance absolutely everything,…

Yes they are poor because they make bad decisions. If you are unable to avoid repeatedly making bad purchasing decision, you are poor not just because of unfortunate circumstance but because you are unable to not be poor because of personal limitation (sometimes I may be stupidity, sometimes addictions or other bad behaviors).

My father manages employees that constantly have garnishment on their salaries because of some unpaid debt. Yet they make decent wage and could afford an OK life if they didn't blow most of it on stupid stuff.

So what I mean is that you cannot put all the blame on the "system" and the marketers selling appetising food or whatnot. Those people keep making those choices themselves and outside out of taking their liberty there is not much you can do about it. I actually think the current system affords them a better life than they could otherwise.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#726

Post by mrmlz »

fajitaforce5 wrote: post #639
netsharc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many people buy the American dream of "If you just work hard enough, you'll be successful.". If you believe this, then you'd have to believe the opposite: "If you're poor and unsucessful, that means you didn't work hard enough, you must be lazy.". And too many trust-fund kids or kids from rich parents who could afford to send them to expensive schools (or rich enough to live in a district with a well-funded schoo…

My MAGA dad grew up dirt poor in a house with literal dirt floors in some rooms. Four kids. No dad. Government support. He got a job as a cop and raised me and thinks anyone can get out of poverty if they work hard. He’s a corner case but he’ll never see it tha way because he literally bootstrapped himself. How do I tell him he didn’t and just got lucky? He kinda has a point.

Way to dismiss his life achievement as "being lucky"

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#727

Post by vdqtp3 »

xp84 wrote: post #489
vdqtp3 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mental poster child for "poor" is exactly this person. She had three kids (all in public school), lived in section 8 and worked part-time bagging groceries. The kids had nothing nice, clothes were all hand-me-down or donations with holes in them from being so old. No car, no health care, horrible dentistry to the point of becoming an emergency. They had a bigger TV than my middle class family, a premium channel pa…

> you don't get to have luxuries AND complain about being poor. Some people might be inclined to try to drag you for the first half of that statement, and honestly I'm inclined to try to not judge poor people for what I usually assume is one or two small splurges that raise their moods just high enough to not slit their wrists, you know? But I think the second half of the sentence is kinda fair. IF they are self-awar…

I don't think I would criticize those decisions for someone working 40+ hours a week either, even if they are on assistance programs. I think it's foolish but you kind of get to make foolish decisions to a degree when you're putting in the effort. It was the combination of all of the factors.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#728

Post by tasuki »

dijit wrote: post #723
tasuki wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people spend insane amounts of money on things they don't need to impress the people they don't like.

Two hypothesis: 1) The nature of interest in unsecured loans is high interest (almost by definition) and increasingly so if you are seen as a credit risk. Thus small debts compound over time making them unbearable for longer. 2) Our friend is merely Keeping up with the Jones’ despite never going above a zero balance. One of these is uncharitable and ridiculous- the other is a known issue that keeps people in poverty.…

I guess I wasn't being clear: I wasn't talking about the person from this thread!

You said:

> Most people are about 2 bad decisions from poverty.

My reaction was to this. I agreed with you, and added the cause: utter financial recklessness. People spending money on things they don't need instead of saving say a quarter of their salary.

For some time I was earning a couple times the average salary in my region of the world. Yet I found that spending about the average salary was more than enough to live a very comfortable life. I feel this is not the norm for whatever reason: most people inflate spending to match their income, and then they're 2 bad decisions (or even some bad luck) from poverty.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#729

Post by qingcharles »

abustamam wrote: post #659
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking with conservatively minded friends on this subject, they just shrug it off, smug in the knowledge that if they were in that situation they would immediately be able to pull themselves out of it. The fact that other people don't just do that is because they make poor decisions and therefore its all about 'personal responsibility'. There really is no convincing them otherwise.

I was chatting with a buddy about this. Older, libertarian fellow. He was in this situation, several times. And he was able to pull himself out of it. That was all the "proof" he needed to be against helping the poor, because if he could do it, anyone could do it.

I was talking to a conservative chap the other day during the SNAP crisis and he was foaming at the mouth that SNAP needed to be abolished. I asked him what to do about the people with disabilities who couldn't work. He told me he knew personally of two people born without arms or legs who have factory jobs earning $45/hour and have no need of SNAP and therefore anyone disabled who was claiming SNAP was a scammer. And if they really are that disabled, he went on, then their family should be taking care of them and not the state.

p.s. this person has also never paid taxes in his entire life because "government is a scam"

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#730

Post by vorpalhex »

potato3732842 wrote: post #170
vorpalhex wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the Trump administration canceled didn't right that wrong. What the Trump administration canceled was an agreement for the local county to stop issuing fines, which had already been in effect for over two years. And within those two years, the local county built zero sewers, zero hookups. They literally built nothing in two years. The original agreement under the Biden admin, which to be clear, the President doe…

I guess the DOJ saying not to fine these people is a nice gesture but in practice local fines don't mean anything in a situation like this unless the poors on the property are unlucky enough to be on a property that the municipality wants to lien and take for whatever reason. Whatever the dollar number is, it's likely some insane punitive number (hundreds to thousands per day) that nobody could ever pay and never wil…

Right, the fines don't matter.

What should have happened in the original agreement is that the fed pays for the sewers at a very cheap rate and the municipality does the work and owns it for eg 10-20 years.

That's actually a really common agreement. I don't know why DOJ had such a derp moment here and instead demanded billboards about health risks for people who don't have the money for basic medical care much less exploratory lab testing.

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