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My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

sashachapin.substack.com

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Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#181

Post by collingreen »

jamilton wrote: post #130
collingreen wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes we find it distasteful to have things we're fully aware of explicitly spelled out. A trite quip here is "nobody wants to see how the sausage is made".

Yeah. I wonder why that is - is it because it highlights a conflict between our actions and values? If left unexamined, it's a non-issue, so having it spelled out feels like a problem being created?

I like your description.

I think sometimes this is when we find our way to the middle of two relatively simple drives: "be an orthodox group member/ avoid being a social outcast" and "avoid the discomfort of cognitive dissonance / admitting hypocrisy".

If there aren't immediate consequences for inaction (especially if there ARE costs and/or social consequences for action) were very good at convincing ourselves to ignore it (or tell ourselves we will EVENTUALLY deal with it but just not right now)

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#182

Post by dirtybirdnj »

Thossndjsj wrote: post #134
SirMaster wrote: post #27

Why do we need to be normal anyway? Why can't we just be unique?

Most people from what I've seen don't want unique as much as they want somewhat famailiar. If it deviates too far away from that then they are repulsed, and I can give you an example right here. I'm going to commit suicide. I've known this for the last 15 years. It'll probably be another 10 years before I'll die, but I know my end is half laying down with a 1.5 inch nylon strap tied cinched on my neck and a tree trun…

I am taking care of an aging and physically limited parent. It's brought me to my absolute limit. I often say stuff about wanting to be dead but I don't think I've ever been serious about it. It's the kind of thing I am trying to discourage in myself, but I'm trying to be more compassionate with myself in the times that I do.

Why are you so certain? 15 years is a long time to look down that barrel why do you deserve that?

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#183

Post by mewpmewp2 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #165
overfeed wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why dontou consider it "manipulation"? Would you consider what goes into you resume, or performance/promotion packet "manipulation"? In every interaction there are spoken and unspoken rules, and those who excel tend to be those who can understand the subtext and express themselves effectively.

It depends, of course. Some people might fill their resume with outright BS, and this would be widely regarded as manipulative.

Depends how you define outright BS. I bet most people at least cherrypick the best data points amongst thousands of possible, giving a look that doesn't really represent them as a whole. And then they omit some undesirable things. Similar to how people on social media will only post their best moments, giving inaccurate representation of their lives and themselves while overall causing others to feel like they are missing out, etc.

So here is the skill of being able to cherrypick data to give the best representation of yourself as opposed to true average honest overview of oneself. Then the skill of avoiding answering questions you don't want to answer to by answering by talking about what you want to talk about (think politicians).

Same is with real life interactions. Among 1000s of things you could say or do there is always some that are more effective than others in reaching a certain goal, whether it is getting a job, making a sale, convincing someone, making a friend or whatever.

Is it manipulative only if you make up something or if you are able to get people to do what you want by being able to cherrypick the most convincing ideas, arguments, facts etc.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#184

Post by lll-o-lll »

RealityVoid wrote: post #40
lll-o-lll wrote: post #34

Wow, I can’t get past the first couple of paragraphs. > I’ve tried so hard to learn how to connect with people. It’s all I ever wanted, for so long. Are there really people like this? HN is probably the wrong place to ask this question, but this is so far outside of my bubble that I just cannot relate. Some people feel like this, for real ?

Yes? I mean...why is it so hard to imagine people having difficulties with things you find easy or natural?

I just. Don’t care?

I mean, I want to connect to a few people. I’m human, I love, I feel.

I don’t care about connection with most of the people I would interact with.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#185

Post by lovich »

koakuma-chan wrote: post #178
lovich wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and yes. I actually like being part of society and don’t need to feed delusions of grandeur to feel content. Also I want to point out how I referenced his opinion as being like tips on winning the lottery. Getting to a unique position of power like that requires so much luck and other input that you have no control over that I view the “advice” on how to achieve it as useless and just the result of those people g…

Arguably, you are the lucky one to be able to be a part of society in a way that you are also content with it.

You asked about this in a specific context.

There are lots of things I am not content with. Some I think are reasonable and won’t change my mind are. Others are irrational and I believe an aspect of maturing is becoming content with the fact that those feelings are irrational and I shouldn’t be unhappy because of it.

The example I use in conversation with friends in this topic is that when I am hungry and pass by someone with a nice steak, I don’t get in a tizzy about not having it myself the same way I would when I was 5.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#187

Post by skeeter2020 »

collingreen wrote: post #115
pseidemann wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It's the playbook of social interaction written out. Nothing offensive about that.

Sometimes we find it distasteful to have things we're fully aware of explicitly spelled out. A trite quip here is "nobody wants to see how the sausage is made".

Sometimes doing something explicit that is typically done without thought or plan feels phony and off. This is such a scenario.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#188

Post by mewpmewp2 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #156
etangent wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious about it, we give them a pass. One of the characteristics of autistic-spectrum individuals is that they must make a conscious effort to achieve goals that are achieved unconsciously by most of u…

A lot of normal people may routinely act charming and game social interactions, but they generally aren't being "manipulative" in the process. "Manipulation" is really just a polite word for routinely lying and BS'ing people on the off-chance that they are going to be fooled and/or not want to call you out on it. If you're reasonably socially skilled, you can usually see it coming a mile away and react accordingly, b…

What about intentionally making conscious effort to remember to use people's names when talking to them?

And other similar things that increase someone's odds of being liked or convincing or getting someone to do what they want more likely?

Doing those things is not BSing, not lying, yet people can consciously be doing those to increase the likelihood of getting what they want.

Many people will obviously do it naturally. I personally have to make a conscious effort every time for such things.

Does having to consciously decide to do those things make me a sociopath? I certainly wouldn't bother saying someone's name if I didn't think it mattered for reaching my life goals. Extra same with small talk.

Then what about memorising some funny, self deprecating stories from my life to make people laugh so they would like me more?

Then what about asking questions, keeping up conversation etc, etc, even though I would rather be in my own thoughts doing my own thing?

I do it all consciously and intentionally for my own self benefit. Some to avoid bad things happening to me, some to make good things more likely to happen to me.

If I didn't do those things people might think I am awkward, weird, silent, boring, pass me on for promotion at work, etc.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#189

Post by Aurornis »

etangent wrote: post #72
Aurornis wrote: post #47

This post wasn't what I was expecting from the "socially normal" title. While there is a lot of self-reflection and growth in this piece, a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Look at the first two subheadings: > 1: Connecting with people is about being a dazzling person > 2: Connecting with people is about playing their game The post felt like a rollercoa…

> a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious about it, we give them a pass. One of the characteristics of autistic-spectrum individuals is that they must make a conscious effort to achieve goals that are achieved unconsciously by most of u…

> A lot of stuff "normal" people do is charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Except because they are not conscious about it, we give them a pass.

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison to what’s describe in this blog post.

The writer describes taking on different personas and trying different tricks with other people portrayed as subjects of some sort of experiment.

The casual mentions of how they tried some conversational trick and got someone into full on sobbing was particularly striking because there was hardly a mention of concern for the other person. The only discussion was about the trick used to elicit the response.

That is what I do not agree is consistent with normal interactions. Most people would feel some degree of guilt or dirtiness, for lack of a better word, if they used some of these tricks to lure random interactions into a false sense of connection and feigned friendship, especially if for no other reason to experiment on the other person.

Re: My stages of learning to be a socially normal person

#190

Post by Aurornis »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #126
Aurornis wrote: post #47

This post wasn't what I was expecting from the "socially normal" title. While there is a lot of self-reflection and growth in this piece, a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Look at the first two subheadings: > 1: Connecting with people is about being a dazzling person > 2: Connecting with people is about playing their game The post felt like a rollercoa…

They call that too: > There are two reactions that one could have to the previous section. “Wow, that’s cool, how he developed the ability to create a lot of deep connections in this lonely world.” And: “that is a weird and creepy thing to want, sounds kind of vampiric.” I believe that both reactions are correct in some proportion. > Here is the thing about going around the world in a state of emotional openness and…

> This post actually kind of blows my mind.

I suggest re-reading it from some different perspectives. Consider that the narrator may not be entirely reliable. They way they talk about being able to read other people and manipulate them into a sense of openness and connection has some hints of behaviors that are associated with people who view themselves as superior to others and view others as mere targets for their superior intellect to manipulate.

In this case, it’s worth considering that maybe the blog post itself is yet another chapter in their experimentation with manipulating others into a sense of connection, and the text is written in a persuasive way to leave the reader thinking that they have been blessed with some openness and revelation from the author. In other words, it’s crafted in a way to generate some of the same false sense of connection describe in the article, with the stories and claims crafted to target what the target audience wants to hear.

Something to think about when reading it, at least.

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