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Being poor vs. being broke

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Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#431

Post by losvedir »

I'm privileged to have never had to worry about this, growing up comfortably middle to upper middle class.

With that said, I have a perpetual point of confusion here, likely due to my own blindspots and something I don't want to ask in person because it's not nice: is it an issue of budgeting?

Take someone who makes $15/hr and someone who makes $16/hr. Both are poor. Both live paycheck to paycheck, have no savings, etc. But theoretically, couldn't the latter person live exactly like the first one, and save $2000/yr?

Or, consider the same person from one year to the next. Expenses are lumpy. They begin the year at $0 and they end the next year at $0. It seems... unbelievably coincidental, I guess?... that they happened to earn the exact amount of money they needed.

The second part is that I've heard it's expensive to be poor. You get crappy stuff that breaks and needs replacement more often. You can't afford the larger, cheaper-per-ounce item at the grocery store, so you're paying more for the smaller things. The flip side is that if that's true, it provides kind of a ramp out, since as you're able to save, you can use your money more efficiently and save more.

Where am I going wrong in my thinking here?

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#432

Post by pigpag »

bashmelek wrote: post #292
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #15

I like this guy’s backstory[0]. I grew up in Africa. The poverty I saw, as a child, was foundational in my own personal development. There are some places in the US, that have that kind of poverty, but I have not seen them, with my own eyes. I have family that dedicated most of their life to fighting poverty (with very limited success). They believe that poverty is probably the single biggest problem in the world, to…

I live comfortably in the United States. I consider myself middle class. I worry about my job and increasing costs. But I’m okay. I do feel like that we really could end global poverty if we tried, and that people like me ought to contribute.

Not all poverty is created equal.

Some people had good financial discipline and still fell into poverty due to business catastrophes, accidents or health problems. We need better systems to provide shields for those people, be it bankruptcy laws, universal insurance or healthcare.

Others live in unhabitable environments that can never sustain a viable economy. Until humanity finds technologies to address those environmental issues, they can never get out of poverty.

Then there are always people who are reckless and irresponsible. They are black holes of resources. Some can be educated while others do deserve to be poor. It's based their own decisions and I don't see a moral issue to leave them alone.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#433

Post by torlok »

cryptonector wrote: post #406
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #15

I like this guy’s backstory[0]. I grew up in Africa. The poverty I saw, as a child, was foundational in my own personal development. There are some places in the US, that have that kind of poverty, but I have not seen them, with my own eyes. I have family that dedicated most of their life to fighting poverty (with very limited success). They believe that poverty is probably the single biggest problem in the world, to…

> I have family that dedicated most of their life to fighting poverty (with very limited success). Yes, it's very difficult to defeat poverty. But it has been happening world-wide. Poverty has been going down world-wide for 200 years. It's not so much through the efforts of individuals or even governments, just a network effect of technological advancements and opportunity creation (made possible by those advancement…

Sounds like the optimism rhetoric of Steven Pinker. I suggest you read up on the numerous criticisms of his work. Most of the optimism is based on a ridiculously low global poverty line conjured out of thin air, and other nonsense like GDP.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#434

Post by filleduchaos »

mc32 wrote: post #361
filleduchaos wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever in your life washed a load of laundry by hand?

I have in fact when I was a student. Granted they were only my clothes and I tried not to dirty them but also used a laundromat in most instances. Sometimes would ask a friend for access to a machine.

I have had to do actual loads of laundry (for a household, and not just clothes - towels, beddings, and more), entirely by hand, no laundromat or friend with access to a machine, which is why I ask.

It is both back-breaking and time-intensive especially if you are trying to get clean laundry not just "smells of detergent" laundry. And especially if there's someone who does manual labour in the household - getting heavy stains out effectively doubles your workload. There are many people who cannot just "try not to dirty" their clothes.

I am not trying to downplay your experience. But student poverty and poverty in the adult world without all the cushioning of a campus are very different kettles of fish.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#435

Post by johnisgood »

tome wrote: post #51
johnisgood wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the steps. What if they have no family members or they do not give a damn? Start again please from the state of being homeless but assume this person has no family members, or has relatives, but they do not give a damn. It crumbles, IMO.

Maybe you didn't read the whole comment?

I dunno if that last sentence was there when I made the comment...

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#436

Post by ModernMech »

d_silin wrote: post #344
xp84 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I doubt they are. Most people who are on the streets chronically are there because they’ve burned every bridge. Most people have a dozen friends or family who would gladly give them the guest room for a few weeks if they had a job loss that put them at risk of hard times — on the other hand those who mysteriously have zero friends or family usually got that way by the same antisocial behaviors that contributed to…

I can tell your income bracket from this phrase alone: > Most people have a dozen friends or family who would gladly give them the guest room for a few weeks. No, most people do not. I am aware of classic triad of "malignantly antisocial personality + substance abuse + criminal record" that makes people stay on the streets. But a lot of people end up on the streets simply because they were already only one notch abov…

The friends and family route works the first time around. You couch surf until you find a job, as you go through your contact list people are happy to host at first, but there comes the awkward "so... it's been a couple weeks... how's that job search going?". Then you have to put your job search on pause until you find a new place to live.

Eventually your job search keeps turning up "no" because they don't like the answers to "can you explain this gap on your resume?" and they really don't like the answer to "do you have a permanent residence" or "do you have any drug-related convictions?"

Hopefully you find a job before you've exhausted the good will of all your friends. And pray to GOD it doesn't happen again because the next time around, each one will have an excuse as to why they can't host you. "Oh sorry, we've got our inlaws, try X, Y, Z"... who are also "unable" to host.

So then your car is your home. If you're lucky enough to have one. But the point is "just have friends" isn't a solution.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#437

Post by bluGill »

barbazoo wrote: post #99
qwertox wrote: post #84

> You can’t afford to go to the movies, but will stay home and watch what’s new on Netflix. I never had Netflix nor Spotify and I am not poor. I always thought that having Netflix and Spotify is some kind of luxury. Not a big one, but those services are not cheap, if you're on a tight budget.

If you're a family it's much cheaper to have Netflix, spread these $20 over 4 people a month than going to the movie theater for $100+ every time. These $20/month are already out of reach for many, I realize that.

Or you can do without both - as a large number of people do. Taking that family to the movie theater once per year is a lot cheaper than a monthly netflix subscription, which is another option.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#438

Post by expedition32 »

bashmelek wrote: post #292
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #15

I like this guy’s backstory[0]. I grew up in Africa. The poverty I saw, as a child, was foundational in my own personal development. There are some places in the US, that have that kind of poverty, but I have not seen them, with my own eyes. I have family that dedicated most of their life to fighting poverty (with very limited success). They believe that poverty is probably the single biggest problem in the world, to…

I live comfortably in the United States. I consider myself middle class. I worry about my job and increasing costs. But I’m okay. I do feel like that we really could end global poverty if we tried, and that people like me ought to contribute.

Everyone worries about losing their job I think. Nowadays employment is a lot more unstable. Hell a large percentage of the workforce doesn't even have permanent employment. Flexibility is great for companies but humans need stability.

There is nothing worse than the economy going South, corporations starting to cut jobs en masse and you finding out that there are 50 other people who show up for that job interview.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#439

Post by pigpag »

kelvinjps10 wrote: post #290
jandrewrogers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is an element of "right country, right time" when it comes to being able to escape poverty with hard work and grit, though hard work and grit always helps. I am extremely fortunate to have been born in the US. My outcome would have been vastly harder to achieve almost anywhere else. Even in the US it was far from certain.

I'm immigrant that come to the us and always that the Americans complain is hardd to understand, like for example inflation they complain about being 3% in my country there was hyperinflation 1000%, also I didn't use to have running water(water would come every 3 days) and electricity would stop working every few days and it would take several hours or days to get fixed. then working here there is so many jobs and yo…

In a democratic society, complaining is very important. It is probably why, by people complaining about a 5% inflation, the government had to take drastic moves to suppress it.

If you don't complain, you eventually won't be able to complain. If you can't complain, you take anything shoveled to you by the government, poverty being the foremost.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#440

Post by bluGill »

ge96 wrote: post #297

I'm "low-rich" (middle class?) poor eg. I have a six-fig job but I also have almost six-fig of debt, so I have after paying all my bills (mostly debt) almost nothing left. But I have an apt/cool cheap car, toys like 2nd hand computers/cameras. I've been in debt for the last 15 years since I went into college. I don't eat canned food often actually trying to fast as it's hard to not gain weight when I spend most of my…

That is the way it should be. Well more or less, you didn't state what your debt is from, some are better than others. College debt can be a good investment long term (depends on the degree). Buying a house is a good long term investment if you live there for a long time.

You should save for retirement and a "rainy day". However remember you can't take it with you. If you have the above savings, an extra penny, and something to spend a penny on spend it. You can't take it with you, so you should be at 0 at the end of every month (again ignoring retirement and rainy day savings)

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