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Being poor vs. being broke

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Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#401

Post by simoncion »

9rx wrote: post #396
simoncion wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no hope of excessive weight gain here. Uh. We can pretty confidently say that ancient civilizations had fat folks, too. Also, butter, processed animal fats (such as lard), fatty meats... none of these are recent inventions, and they're all good at helping you to grow fat. I feel very confident in claiming that they (or things functionally just like them) have been around for a thousand years, and I expect…

> We can pretty confidently say that ancient civilizations had fat folks, too. Not without a lot of extra help. That is why I said by yourself. If you include the input of many other people building things like a tractor you could also grow enough of your own food from the ground to exceed your normal caloric requirements without much trouble, but you're a long way from doing it from scratch at that point. Unless, li…

> Not without a lot of extra help. That is why I said by yourself.

One guy can totally make butter, lard, and harvest fatty meat by themselves. While it's far easier with help, it's not as if you're asking the fellow to -say- change the orbit of the sun. Fat people and high-calorie foods substantially predate modern industry.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#402

Post by carlosjobim »

msm_ wrote: post #246
carlosjobim wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess because the ratio of people complaining about poverty is 10 000 to 1 compared to people who give solutions to poverty. There are solutions to poverty, which the individual person can follow, but nobody wants to talk about those. It has always amazed me, because poverty is hell. Who wouldn't want to get out of that, and who wouldn't want his fellow brother to get out of that? I could talk about it here, but I…

Occam's razor. Either: * There are solutions to poverty, which the individual person can follow, but (even though poverty is hell) people ignore them and prefer to stay poor * The solutions to poverty you think about actually aren't. The money-deprived people already know about them and (having much more knowledge about poor people's world) know they don't work. Since you - like almost everyone here - are a smart per…

You forgot with your razor the third option:

* People who have successfully clawed and scratched themselves out of poverty are almost never taken into consideration in discussions about poverty.

At most modern culture appreciates a rags-to-riches story. But rags-to-normal stories are unheard of. When was the last time you heard about people going from poverty to having just decent lives? Doesn't really pique the interest of people, perhaps.

But that's what countless people have done, they're just not considered in the perspective of poverty. At most you just see them as some everyday guy in the supermarket or on the bus.

Getting out of poverty and back on your feet again is very close to a miracle. That's how it feels for those who experience it. But hackers spit on it with contempt, because that was not the solution they would have preferred. Or that was not a solution which was applicable to every single person on earth. And in that case, I guess we should file a formal complaint also against all the saints who cured the blind but didn't cure the deaf.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#403

Post by pvankessel »

charcircuit wrote: post #295
hexator wrote: post #37

Understanding poverty starts with empathy. People thinking that "poor is a mindset" are lacking in that. It's not that simple! You can't just mind your way out of poverty! This isn't a math problem.

>This isn't a math problem. It's an optimization problem, which I would consider a category of math problems. Not wanting to perform a solution or not being able to figure out a solution, or know how to find someone to solve it for them is a mind problem.

This view of the world puts everything on the individual. It might be worth reading up on structuralism to balance that perspective out a bit. I'm somewhere in the middle of the two extremes myself, but surely one must acknowledge that there are larger systems at play that can constrain an individual's ability to "optimize".

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#404

Post by simoncion »

9rx wrote: post #387
simoncion wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What isn't urban but also not rural? The sub-urban regions. All the suburbs I've been in (and I'd wager nearly all of the US suburbs in existence) require you to have a vehicle to go about your day... unless you work from home and have everything delivered to you, I guess.

The particular urban subset that you speak of that is also literally named as such is still within the urban set, so that's clearly not it.

It's true that the word 'urban' is a substring match for the word 'suburban'. You're right about that.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#405

Post by [deleted] »

dfxm12 wrote: post #394
kelvinjps10 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm immigrant that come to the us and always that the Americans complain is hardd to understand, like for example inflation they complain about being 3% in my country there was hyperinflation 1000%, also I didn't use to have running water(water would come every 3 days) and electricity would stop working every few days and it would take several hours or days to get fixed. then working here there is so many jobs and yo…

Some things are fake issues created by the media to give people a reasonable sounding cover to vote for politicians that have reactionary politics that they wouldn't cop to in public. This is why you hear people say they vote for Trump because of "the economy", even though when he and his party were in power the first time, the economy was on the downturn after he implemented policy (even before COVID) and every econ…

[deleted]

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#406

Post by cryptonector »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #15

I like this guy’s backstory[0]. I grew up in Africa. The poverty I saw, as a child, was foundational in my own personal development. There are some places in the US, that have that kind of poverty, but I have not seen them, with my own eyes. I have family that dedicated most of their life to fighting poverty (with very limited success). They believe that poverty is probably the single biggest problem in the world, to…

> I have family that dedicated most of their life to fighting poverty (with very limited success).

Yes, it's very difficult to defeat poverty. But it has been happening world-wide. Poverty has been going down world-wide for 200 years. It's not so much through the efforts of individuals or even governments, just a network effect of technological advancements and opportunity creation (made possible by those advancements), and perhaps (almost certainly) by credit that makes those advancements go faster.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#407

Post by physicsguy »

dijit wrote: post #125

Even this does a poor job of explaining being poor. The constant open loop on everything you own, terrified to discard anything even if its broken because there are components that might be useful to fix something else; the constant churn of second-hand (and cheap/disposable) things that are already close to death before they come into your possession and- crucially: the crushing weight of knowing that any financial…

I remember watching something on BBC about minimalism years ago when I was doing my PhD and earning £13k a year and thinking that I just couldn’t do it because it relies on you having the money to repurchase something you need that you threw away

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#408

Post by mrguyorama »

tracker1 wrote: post #162
JohnMakin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of low skill jobs have constantly shifting schedules given at the last possible minute (day by day sometimes) that don’t necessarily allow the time luxury of juggling multiple jobs. Fast food is a great example.

Not sure about that even.. in my late teens I worked fast food and as a clerical temp worker (I could type fast) for data entry/processing. The fast food job didn't have an issue scheduling me just in the evenings/weekends. A lot of employers are pretty understanding if you have multiple jobs and will work around your needs as much as possible.

>in my late teens I worked fast food and as a clerical temp worker

Yes and the world you experienced decades ago doesn't exist anymore.

>a clerical temp worker (I could type fast) for data entry/processing

Rarely available as a job anymore in the US. People in other countries can do it for cheaper, or local people who are so thoroughly disabled that it's legal to pay them almost nothing just to give them something to do as the government pays them to survive.

"Just walk in with a firm handshake" hasn't been a thing in forever.

>A lot of employers are pretty understanding if you have multiple jobs and will work around your needs as much as possible.

No they wont, because they can just tell you to deal with it or find someone else.

If you aren't willing to take exactly the hours they give you, exactly the shifts they give you, or figure out how to cover those shifts yourself, they'll just stop giving you hours and pay someone else.

Even if you have a friendly manager, corporate will fire him if he isn't pushing you hard enough. First level "managers" don't even get to manage anymore, they just follow whatever policy or some algorithms tell them they have to do.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#409

Post by bluGill »

carlosjobim wrote: post #165
ModernMech wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone is wondering why solving homelessness and poverty is so hard, this sibling reply is dead but I think people need to see that this opinion exists, and we need to contemplate the richest and most powerful people in this country share this sentiment: "we're not blind to it, half of us are sick of paying for it for multiple generations, accruing interest. we're paying for poor people from 20 years ago still. le…

It's nobody's fault for becoming poor. But if you're staying poor (dirt poor) for decades, then there is something you're doing wrong. The other commenter puts it in a rude way, but there's something to it. If you evidently can't take care of yourself, then you shouldn't be given more money. You should be in some kind of institution which takes care of your basic needs.

> If you evidently can't take care of yourself, then you shouldn't be given more money. You should be in some kind of institution which takes care of your basic needs.

We used to have those in the US. Things are better for the poor now without them - a few do freeze to death in the streets today, most do not, while the abuse of those old institutions did hit most. The people who need institutions are also those least able to advocate for themselves if they are abused.

I don't like the current answer, but it could be worse and if you want something better you need to explain how it won't descend into worse. I don't have any ideas myself.

Re: Being poor vs. being broke

#410

Post by carlosjobim »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #335
carlosjobim wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen "the system" sleeping on the streets, starving, or not having enough clothes? No matter who or what is to blame, the individual is who is paying the price and who should have the strongest interest to get out of that situation. Which means, if you're staying in that situation for years on end you have to admit to yourself you are doing something which isn't working. Thats why people have more sympathy f…

Yes, because human mind is famously known for being extraordinarily good at getting out of self-destructive spiraling without external help, and that help is famously known for being provided to everyone who needs it regardless of their economic status. Also, chronic lack of money has absolutely no way to contribute to that occurring in the first place. /s

I get it. Everybody gets it. For some months, even years. But after a decade or so in such a situation, you must arrive at some sort of epiphany, look at your life and say "what the fuck?".

And I don't think anybody is arguing that people shouldn't get help to get back on their feet. Rather that some people refuse to get back on their feet.

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